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shakey2277

Flourish over flourish excel

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I'm sorry to drag an old thread up but I'd love to know if anyone has sucsessfully used flourish excel instead of CO2 injection. The Flourish excel instuctions for use say 'The use of either CO2 injection or Flourish Excel™ does not necessarily negate the use of the other' so I'm hesitant to lash out and buy a dosing pump to give it a go.

Flourish contains copper and souldn't be used with invertibrates.

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They both should be used together with consistency.

Excel is organic carbon and it only has a limited lifespan. 24 hours or less possibly. so this should be dosed daily.

I believe plants adapt to use this as their primary carbon source so this is why you need to be consistent with the dosing for best results.

Standard flourish is trace elements which are needed by the plants to grow healthily as these are quickly depleted from your water or may not even be there in the first place.

Think of it like excel is your bread and butter and flourish is your vitamins and minerals.

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I'm sorry to drag an old thread up but I'd love to know if anyone has sucsessfully used flourish excel instead of CO2 injection. The Flourish excel instuctions for use say 'The use of either CO2 injection or Flourish Excel™ does not necessarily negate the use of the other' so I'm hesitant to lash out and buy a dosing pump to give it a go. Flourish contains copper and souldn't be used with invertibrates.

For my tank I would rate excel (or similar) a 5 and co2 a 10. Chalk and cheese for me and sticking with co2 now. Depends on lighting I guess, in high lighting you may be pushing it to just use excel. Low light not so critical is my guess.

I'm aware of people doing just excel in high light but the dosing is quite high. I double-dose excel (or similar) and from memory it was higher than that. As you can imagine that is a bit controversial and I'm told you have to increase the dosage gradually. I have accidentally overdosed and promptly lost some fish so could imagine this to be true. On the flip side, I've heard of people over dosing co2 so I guess risks either way.

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Thanks Donny, MCD, Deapool and everyone else including shakey2277,

it was a bit ironic that whilst looking to use these two products there was was this thread about the exact same products.

My local fish store did point out that one was a kind of a CO2 replacement and the other a trace element supplement or fertiliser if you like. It was the same store that suggested since I had cherry shrimp I would be better off using Aquavito Envy as it does not contain copper as does Flourish. And thats the good thing about the aquarium hobby, there are always alternatives. Each application will be a little different depending on dose, existing concentrations, carbon absorption and probably a few others I can't think of.

The store that sold me the Flourish Excel, sold it to me as a tempory carbon suppliment solution until I sorted out a CO2 system. Having thought about my question a bit more I think that a product such as excel cant be used as a complete replacement or alternative for CO2. If I extend my question to ask 'can excel be used as a CO2 replacement in the total abcence of CO2?' that would be a no as CO2 is an absolute requirement to produce glucose in the chloroplasts. The amino acids in the supplements could be used as replacement for simple building materials to assemble protiens glucose is still essential to provide the energy in the form of ATP to do the building.

Steve.

Edited by WhyNot
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Hi [MENTION=15952]WhyNot[/MENTION]

My 2ft planted shrimp tank has been running on ONLY dino pee (similar to flourish but more concentrated) and dino spit (similar to excel but more concentrated) for approx 3 years now, so I can testify that CO2 injection is not always necessary for growing healthy plants. It really depends on several factors, like volume of tank, plant mass, livestock level, lighting.

Plants need carbon to grow, and although the carbon usually comes from CO2, it can also be sourced from liquid carbon additives (glut, e.g., excel, dino spit). However, plants will grow much slower if only provided liquid carbon, as they take up this form of carbon less efficiently than from CO2. Also don't forget that any livestock will also be a source of CO2, and that some CO2 comes from the atmosphere through the water surface.

I only add a few drops of dino pee and dino spit daily. The only other things that go into the tank are shrimp food and light. The tank is ultra low maintenance. I change water about two or three times a year. Plants range from easy low light plants (java fern, subwasstertang, flame moss, fissidens, anubias, crypts, bucephalandras, bolbitus), to medium difficulty stems (pogo helferi, AR mini, HC, rotala h'ra, didiplis diandra, ludwigia brevipes, nesaea triflora, ludwigia arcuata, stauro tropica, hygrophila pinnatifida, proserpinaca palustris). All plants are healthy, but they grow very slowly.

A couple of pics taken today:

WEB5D3_2015B-8945.jpg

WEB5D3_2015B-8952.jpg

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:eek: Wow Watfish, your tank looks stunning. Thats what I was after, proof that it can be done low tech, what ever your doing I wouldn't change a thing. I don't care if my plant growth is slow as long as they grow and are healthy. I guess that if you miss a few days dosing the plants wouldn't be affected.

I still think that there's more going on with carbon dosing than most people think and it is likely that there are multiple metabolic pathways for the carbon. Seachem don't give exact details of whats in the Exel and are a bit vague about how it is utilised. Its main ingredient is listed as 'polycycloglutaracetal' a word worthy putting into a google search. Seachem suggest in their product info that its mostly medium - small chain sugars. Carbon dosing in the marine world is a nutrient export system where carbon in the form of sugar, vinegar and/or alcohol is dosed to grow bacteria which is exported via protein skimming.

My big book of biology suggests that plants have a need for CO2 for photosynthesis and the resultant glucose is then used for growth and energy needs. I assume that Seachem suggest that the excel is a replacement for the glucose produced by photosynthesis rather than CO2 itself. In general the smaller organisms like bacteria and single celled algae can use or consume nutrients much faster than the larger organisms. When carbon in the form of sugar is added to the water the bacteria and algae probably make use of it too and release CO2 to the water as a byproduct. So if the plant cant use it directly they can use it indirectly by using the CO2 that is produced by the bacteria and algae.

As for dosing I've been following the instructions or adding less. Generally, too much of a good thing is probably a bad thing. After reading a few google results for polycycloglutaracetal I'm thinking of changing to the Aquavito Envy.

Edited by WhyNot
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Coming back to this and wondering if glut dosing does actually aid plant growth as a carbon source? I'm fine with it as an algaecide but there seems to be a real lack of studies done that are public, the companies producing are a bit vague on how it all gets used and I'm not noticing a real growth improvement. Thoughts? Anyone done side by side tank comparisons or anything?

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