Lictoga Posted October 6, 2015 Report Share Posted October 6, 2015 (edited) recent events have made me question the ethics of wild caught fish prices, namely when compared to imported fish. how come a wild caught fish cost more than a captive bread counterpart (exclude the garbeg being floged off around here). so the said species is a alowable import, the captive raised one cost less to purchace from your LFS than its wild caught counterpart. even though the wild caught fish has had very little expenditure and investment made compared to its captive bread brethre. wild caught fish have no cost of set up, no brood stock cost, no grow out cost, reduced feeding cost, reduced consumption of power and water, less cost in labor, compared to a cptive bred fish. They are just netted and shiped to a exsporter. The same exsporter and same quarantine as a captive bread fish. so why the the inflated price? is it a status symbol? the belief of better quality? and how can you be sure you are even getting wild caught fish given the certs are not woth the ink on them? Edited October 6, 2015 by Lictoga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grubby Posted October 6, 2015 Report Share Posted October 6, 2015 W@nk value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbunamad Posted October 6, 2015 Report Share Posted October 6, 2015 W@nk value. Nice constructive input [MENTION=3726]grubby[/MENTION]! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pk333 Posted October 6, 2015 Report Share Posted October 6, 2015 Depends where the wild caught fish cam from. Most of the cost will be the freight cost. Basically if it's a wild caught South American cichlid it's caught in the which ever river or creek. It could be caught directly by the exporter, or it could be caught by locals and unsold to the exporter, then it spends some time in a Brazilian exporters facility. The flown to Germany. Because it's a long haul flight, larger bags, with more oxygen and less fish per bag, which means less fish per box, which increases the price per fish. The fish are bought by a German wholesaler, who then sells them to the Australian importer/wholesaler. Because it's another long haul flight it means, larger bags with more oxygen and less fish per bag, which means less fish per box, which increases the price per fish. However if you are buying from a South East Asian breeder, who may be selling direct from his farm as wholesaler, or using a local transhiper, it's not a long haul flight, so more fish per bag, which means more fish per box which makes more economic sense as it's cheaper. Basically buying captive bred fish means fewer people looking for their cut of the action, way way less spent on the cost of shipping for more actual fish. Scenario 1. I can buy 8 discus (1 box) from a German breeder at 50 euro each = ~AU$630, but it's has to be a minimum of a three box purchase, so 24 discus all up which will cost me ~AU$1890. But after I purchase of the discus, pay the freight from Germany, import and AQIS fees, plus quarantine fees, those 8 discus cost me in excess of AU$2000+ (thanks to a dropping Aussie dollar), but I've had to actually pay in excess of AU$6000+ because I had to buy a minimum of 3 boxes. So now I have 16 German bred discus of excellent quality that I need to sell at AU$250+ each just to cover my costs, and not even think of making a profit. p.s. Scenario 1 are the actual real figures discussed with a private importer. Those are the real figures from January this year for me to basically buy wholesale. Can you imagine the retail price? Scenario 2. I can buy Discus from a LFS, paying their mark up on top quality Malaysian bred discus for the same price. Except I'm paying retail prices. As another forum member said, look at the quality. When ever I see German bred Stendker discus for sale in local LFS, I weep at the quality and state of the fish, because the quality is bad, bad, bad. Stendker Discus good brand name in Europe and the USA, but our importers can not afford to buy the decent Stendker discus because the end up too expensive for LFS to buy and then try and sell with a 200% or 300% mark up. So they buy the lowest grade Stendker discus. The runts, or fish with a lot of peppering. Which then sit in a LFS tank, not receiving the proper care, water changes and feeding, and they slowly grow in to football shaped fish with eyes to big for their head. weeee I like getting myself side tracked. Night all. Discus Eye Size explained. Discus’ eye size | Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquaholic99 Posted October 6, 2015 Report Share Posted October 6, 2015 Wild caught fish has huge losses as the fishermen store them until fish collector comes around. Depending on species the mortality rate is as high as 85%. So the landed price has to factor in losses to make a profit. On top of this, many governments are restricting fish collection as they realise the value of bio diversity. Illegal collection being prosecuted as piracy. There is a lot more to this but don't have the time to go into detail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grubby Posted October 6, 2015 Report Share Posted October 6, 2015 Some fish come from dangerous regions, take west Africa for example, someone has to risk, Ebola, Malaria,piranhas, caymans, candiru, rebels, Boko Haram, kidnappers, angry poachers, hostile natives, El Cartel etc to find these gems and get em back. I wouldn't want to do it. I am quite happy to catch my own natives, where the only risks are ticks, snakes, bullrouts and north of Gladstone, salties. You cichlid tragics idea of a collection trip is to drive to Smiths from Logan and purchase some livestock. Or contact some bogan on Gumtree with some peacock juvies. Come on a Rainbow collection trip and see just how difficult it is to 1. get to a spot where the fish are. 2, catch the fish 3. record water parameters 4. pack the fish and get them home in one piece, all without breaking a limb getting to a sweet spot or being bitten by something nasty. And that is doing it in a politically stable, no nasty diseases country like Australia. I wouldn't want to be trying to collect in some places in the world in comparison, Irian Jaya, Borneo,Burma, the Congo, Sierra Leone, Guatemala, Mexico, Columbia No wonder they charge an arm and a leg. There you go Mbunamad, my imput. Constructive enough for you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donny@ageofaquariums Posted October 6, 2015 Report Share Posted October 6, 2015 Yep you pay to compensate for all the losses + transport. Justified? Not sure how one can answer that part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vsimo Posted October 6, 2015 Report Share Posted October 6, 2015 Some fish come from dangerous regions, take west Africa for example, someone has to risk, Ebola, Malaria,piranhas, caymans, candiru, rebels, Boko Haram, kidnappers, angry poachers, hostile natives, El Cartel etc to find these gems and get em back. I wouldn't want to do it. West Africans don't worry much about the piranhas, caymans or candiru, after they have swum to West Africa from the Amazon they are too tired to bite anyone or swim into their pink bits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbunamad Posted October 6, 2015 Report Share Posted October 6, 2015 Some fish come from dangerous regions, take west Africa for example, someone has to risk, Ebola, Malaria,piranhas, caymans, candiru, rebels, Boko Haram, kidnappers, angry poachers, hostile natives, El Cartel etc to find these gems and get em back. I wouldn't want to do it. I am quite happy to catch my own natives, where the only risks are ticks, snakes, bullrouts and north of Gladstone, salties. You cichlid tragics idea of a collection trip is to drive to Smiths from Logan and purchase some livestock. Or contact some bogan on Gumtree with some peacock juvies. Come on a Rainbow collection trip and see just how difficult it is to 1. get to a spot where the fish are. 2, catch the fish 3. record water parameters 4. pack the fish and get them home in one piece, all without breaking a limb getting to a sweet spot or being bitten by something nasty. And that is doing it in a politically stable, no nasty diseases country like Australia. I wouldn't want to be trying to collect in some places in the world in comparison, Irian Jaya, Borneo,Burma, the Congo, Sierra Leone, Guatemala, Mexico, Columbia No wonder they charge an arm and a leg. There you go Mbunamad, my imput. Constructive enough for you? [MENTION=3726]grubby[/MENTION]intelligentinput Very good informative post. However you love your natives and are prepared to go collecting because of that love. Those who prefer other species of fish depend on LFS or breeders to satisfy their fix. The collectors in the above named countries do it for a living and it is probably no big deal for them to do this regularly, although to us it appears to be dangerous. I guess its what you're brought up on and used to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grubby Posted October 6, 2015 Report Share Posted October 6, 2015 West Africans don't worry much about the piranhas, caymans or candiru, after they have swum to West Africa from the Amazon they are too tired to bite anyone or swim into their pink bits. Really ???? Gee, thanks so much for informing me of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquaholic99 Posted October 6, 2015 Report Share Posted October 6, 2015 Price (value) is entirely a personal decision. Some place a higher importance on wild caught fish. If farm bred fish were valued more, the price might be more expensive than wild caught? German line bred or recognized breeders do charge more for their stock. Interestingly when I lived in tokyo, I would try to be at my LFS when the new fish arrived. Once they all got sorted and priced, there would be a tank of unknowns - contaminants leftover that no one could identify. These were marked down extremely low or feed off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crispin Nkowara Posted October 7, 2015 Report Share Posted October 7, 2015 Wild caught taste better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyllie Posted October 7, 2015 Report Share Posted October 7, 2015 I don't know that it's justified, and I have a feeling that once you factor in all costs they're probably both quite even. Transportation is cheaper internationally than it's ever been. I can have something sent from LA to Brisbane cheaper than I can send it from Brisbane to Sydney. And electricity costs for breeders are just crazy. Personally I don't think one way is superior to the other. I've seen some odd/sick/diseased/deformed looking wild caught fish and some captive bred fish in tanks that I wouldn't put my hand in to clean let alone purchase a fish out of. I'm new to this whole game so I really have no idea what I'm talking about but for me it's not about wild caught or captive, it's just about the look and behaviour of the fish. Is it eating, is it skittish, are the colours good, are their tanks clean, are there any dead fish in them etc etc. I will happily pay more for a fish that appears healthy and happy. I don't want to save a few dollars and end up with a dead fish or a diseased fish and a contaminated tank and everything dead. I don't care if it's wild or tank raised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pk333 Posted October 7, 2015 Report Share Posted October 7, 2015 Santarém Discus | Ornamental Fish - Wild Discus - Company Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tankbuster Posted October 7, 2015 Report Share Posted October 7, 2015 Some fish come from dangerous regions, take west Africa for example, someone has to risk, Ebola, Malaria,piranhas, caymans, candiru, rebels, Boko Haram, kidnappers, angry poachers, hostile natives, El Cartel etc to find these gems and get em back. I wouldn't want to do it. I am quite happy to catch my own natives, where the only risks are ticks, snakes, bullrouts and north of Gladstone, salties. You cichlid tragics idea of a collection trip is to drive to Smiths from Logan and purchase some livestock. Or contact some bogan on Gumtree with some peacock juvies. Come on a Rainbow collection trip and see just how difficult it is to 1. get to a spot where the fish are. 2, catch the fish 3. record water parameters 4. pack the fish and get them home in one piece, all without breaking a limb getting to a sweet spot or being bitten by something nasty. And that is doing it in a politically stable, no nasty diseases country like Australia. I wouldn't want to be trying to collect in some places in the world in comparison, Irian Jaya, Borneo,Burma, the Congo, Sierra Leone, Guatemala, Mexico, Columbia No wonder they charge an arm and a leg. There you go Mbunamad, my imput. Constructive enough for you? Outside of kribs what fish from west africa would you get? No offense, but this post sounds incredibly stupid.. lake malawi is in east africa, as well as lake tang. Boko haram as situated in the north of nigeria and they don't venture far from it don't know if you know about nigeria but the north east is subsaharan. Ebola is really only found in Liberia and surrounds, again it is quite isolated given the close proximity of surrounding nations. And that country is war torn good luck finding an industry there to begin with... Wild caughts are expensive because when you factor in losses in livestock and the logistics in bringing them here, the **** adds up.. In all honesty you're making it sound like a warlord or druglord has laid claim to any body of water with interesting fish in these regions, I'm sure they far more lucrative means to generate income.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tankbuster Posted October 7, 2015 Report Share Posted October 7, 2015 I don't know that it's justified, and I have a feeling that once you factor in all costs they're probably both quite even. Transportation is cheaper internationally than it's ever been. I can have something sent from LA to Brisbane cheaper than I can send it from Brisbane to Sydney. And electricity costs for breeders are just crazy. Personally I don't think one way is superior to the other. I've seen some odd/sick/diseased/deformed looking wild caught fish and some captive bred fish in tanks that I wouldn't put my hand in to clean let alone purchase a fish out of.I'm new to this whole game so I really have no idea what I'm talking about but for me it's not about wild caught or captive, it's just about the look and behaviour of the fish. Is it eating, is it skittish, are the colours good, are their tanks clean, are there any dead fish in them etc etc. I will happily pay more for a fish that appears healthy and happy. I don't want to save a few dollars and end up with a dead fish or a diseased fish and a contaminated tank and everything dead. I don't care if it's wild or tank raised. Trabsporting live goods will always be costly, one must remember that you can pack a good deal more dry stock than livestock.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wogboy Posted October 7, 2015 Report Share Posted October 7, 2015 Wild caught taste better. I agree, wild caught are much better when cooking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grubby Posted October 7, 2015 Report Share Posted October 7, 2015 (edited) Outside of kribs what fish from west africa would you get?No offense, but this post sounds incredibly stupid.. lake malawi is in east africa, as well as lake tang. Boko haram as situated in the north of nigeria and they don't venture far from it don't know if you know about nigeria but the north east is subsaharan. Ebola is really only found in Liberia and surrounds, again it is quite isolated given the close proximity of surrounding nations. And that country is war torn good luck finding an industry there to begin with... Wild caughts are expensive because when you factor in losses in livestock and the logistics in bringing them here, the **** adds up.. In all honesty you're making it sound like a warlord or druglord has laid claim to any body of water with interesting fish in these regions, I'm sure they far more lucrative means to generate income.. Mate the Congo is central west Africa, everything African fishwise that isn't a rift lake cichlid comes from West African rivers. Congo Tetras, Jelly Bean Tetras, Hump heads, Kribs, jewel cichlids, yellow tailed tetras, leaf fish, knife fish, morymids etc etc. Ebola is found in loads of places in west africa Ivory Coast, Sierra Leone, Liberia, Zaire, Burkina Fasso. It is even found in South Africa and Sudan. Another threat in Africa are Hippos which kill loads of people and obviously they live in the water. Yes Boko harman are in the North of Nigeria, but there are plenty of warlords around west africa that you don't want to meet. Also a few of those nasty that I pointed out are South American not African obviously, but I just rattled off some of the possible things, Human, Beast, Fish, Insect, Bacteria, parasite and virus that can kill you in some of the areas that are favourite fish come from. I should have grouped them by continent for the pedants out there. I could have added Tsetie fly, yellow fever, Dengue fever, Bird Flu. Anywhere tropical is usually filled with nasty critters and occasionally humans that want to get you. In comparison Tropical Australia is not too bad, with the exception of Snakes, Salties, wild pigs and maybe the odd feral back pack killer, you can safely collect here without too much risk. You might disturb the odd hippy growing dope, but he aint going to get as pissed off as having a run in with El Cartel in Columbia or Mexico. Or Shining Path Guerilias in Peru. What about stray landmines in Cambodia or Laos left over from the Indochina wars of the 1970's. My point is that there are a lot of risks involved in going to the tropics to collect wild fish. Roads are pretty bad too in a lot of the developing world. Heiko Bleher nearly died as a kid in Brazil in a bus crash with his family coming back from collecting in the Amazon. If I mixed my threats up with the regions or continents then It wasn't intentional , I Have very good understanding of geography and geo political issues, I just got on a roll. So, no I do know that Piranha and Candiru come from South America, not Africa. Also Warlords aren't interested in fish, but they don't like snoopers or trespassers in their patch. Do I have to spell that out to you ?????? Edited October 7, 2015 by grubby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Posted October 7, 2015 Report Share Posted October 7, 2015 (edited) the cost of wild caught fish is it justified? Yes Willing buyers....willing sellers If there is no buyers....then you can't justify price Rule of free world commerce... look at petrol...flood market with product...price goes down turn off the tap...price goes up issue is with fish...you have to work out if seller is telling the truth...or are you bring conned... Personally...I've been conned on occasion...,but I eventually found the truth...and now have the real deal learn from your mistakes... Edited October 7, 2015 by Rod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billfish Posted October 7, 2015 Report Share Posted October 7, 2015 Supply and demand people its that simple! Some of the fish that are w c are only able to be caught for a few months of the year Doesnt matter if youre talking rainbows, cardinal tetras ,discus ,angels , rams ,african cichlids or anything larger seeing them in their true form the way nature intended without being deformed to create hifin ,sickle fin variants or balloon variants . 1st rule of nature only the strong survive so the w c specimens should be genetically superior to the hybridised versions of any fish Yes i realise there is some form of hybridisation in most w c strains of fish ,thats probably how we got most the original colour morphs in the wild to start with .As far as hybrid vigor goes im probably a sceptic its like dogs if you cross 2 breeds you dont necessarily get a better dog with less genetic faults you get a dog with 2 different sets of genetic faults but thats getting off track its just a point, so ill pay the extra for a w c or even f1 version of a fish perfectly designed by mother nature and 1000000000 years of evolution Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wogboy Posted October 7, 2015 Report Share Posted October 7, 2015 Wild caught is kidnapped, you think running an African kidnapping ring is cheap, boat fish will exploited next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grubby Posted October 7, 2015 Report Share Posted October 7, 2015 Supply and demand people its that simple! Some of the fish that are w c are only able to be caught for a few months of the year Doesnt matter if youre talking rainbows, cardinal tetras ,discus ,angels , rams ,african cichlids or anything larger seeing them in their true form the way nature intended without being deformed to create hifin ,sickle fin variants or balloon variants . 1st rule of nature only the strong survive so the w c specimens should be genetically superior to the hybridised versions of any fish Yes i realise there is some form of hybridisation in most w c strains of fish ,thats probably how we got most the original colour morphs in the wild to start with .As far as hybrid vigor goes im probably a sceptic its like dogs if you cross 2 breeds you dont necessarily get a better dog with less genetic faults you get a dog with 2 different sets of genetic faults but thats getting off track its just a point, so ill pay the extra for a w c or even f1 version of a fish perfectly designed by mother nature and 1000000000 years of evolution That's why I only keep Rainbows these days and try to get WC or F1 or F2 wherever possible. Obviously that is harder with the New Guinea stuff if not impossible, but the majority of my Rainbows are Aussie fish, Rhads, Aussie Blue eyes, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aqc247 Posted October 7, 2015 Report Share Posted October 7, 2015 Litoga - wild caught fish have no cost of set up, no brood stock cost, no grow out cost, reduced feeding cost, reduced consumption of power and water, less cost in labor, compared to a cptive bred fish. They are just netted and shiped to a exsporter. The same exsporter and same quarantine as a captive bread fish. You are absolutely right @Litoga the fish cost absolutely nothing. Have a think about that for a sec.. You've answered your own question. Tell that to a prawn trawler owner and see his reaction lol Why aren't people putting up their prices and charging what their fish should be worth if they weigh up to the same quality? Would that make you happier? Imagine if peeps sold fish at the same price as lfs to other hobbyists. Then it would just come down to quality not price Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lictoga Posted October 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2015 You are absolutely right @Litoga the fish cost absolutely nothing. Have a think about that for a sec.. You've answered your own question. Tell that to a prawn trawler owner and see his reaction lolWhy aren't people putting up their prices and charging what their fish should be worth if they weigh up to the same quality? Would that make you happier? Imagine if peeps sold fish at the same price as lfs to other hobbyists. Then it would just come down to quality not price Was referring to expenditure and investments made compared to captive raised species. I'm missing your point here can you please explain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tankbuster Posted October 7, 2015 Report Share Posted October 7, 2015 Mate the Congo is central west Africa, everything African fishwise that isn't a rift lake cichlid comes from West African rivers. Congo Tetras, Jelly Bean Tetras, Hump heads, Kribs, jewel cichlids, yellow tailed tetras, leaf fish, knife fish, morymids etc etc. Ebola is found in loads of places in west africa Ivory Coast, Sierra Leone, Liberia, Zaire, Burkina Fasso. It is even found in South Africa and Sudan. Another threat in Africa are Hippos which kill loads of people and obviously they live in the water. Yes Boko harman are in the North of Nigeria, but there are plenty of warlords around west africa that you don't want to meet. Also a few of those nasty that I pointed out are South American not African obviously, but I just rattled off some of the possible things, Human, Beast, Fish, Insect, Bacteria, parasite and virus that can kill you in some of the areas that are favourite fish come from. I should have grouped them by continent for the pedants out there. I could have added Tsetie fly, yellow fever, Dengue fever, Bird Flu. Anywhere tropical is usually filled with nasty critters and occasionally humans that want to get you. In comparison Tropical Australia is not too bad, with the exception of Snakes, Salties, wild pigs and maybe the odd feral back pack killer, you can safely collect here without too much risk. You might disturb the odd hippy growing dope, but he aint going to get as pissed off as having a run in with El Cartel in Columbia or Mexico. Or Shining Path Guerilias in Peru. What about stray landmines in Cambodia or Laos left over from the Indochina wars of the 1970's. My point is that there are a lot of risks involved in going to the tropics to collect wild fish. Roads are pretty bad too in a lot of the developing world. Heiko Bleher nearly died as a kid in Brazil in a bus crash with his family coming back from collecting in the Amazon. If I mixed my threats up with the regions or continents then It wasn't intentional , I Have very good understanding of geography and geo political issues, I just got on a roll. So, no I do know that Piranha and Candiru come from South America, not Africa. Also Warlords aren't interested in fish, but they don't like snoopers or trespassers in their patch. Do I have to spell that out to you ?????? Mate i am half nigerian, have been there a few times too, of course there are diseases and bad ****, but it doesn't affect the exporting of fish, same as hippos killing people as they do this at night, and locals are privy to it. The pricing has nothing to do with the risks, it's simply the cost of logistics. Also no, warlords wouldn't give 2 ****s about some peasants fishing near them, africa is still quite remote, who would these people tell? **** with statements as broad as yours, i'd think my uncles and aunts ride wildebeest to work in benin city... You may as well say ebola is in the US due to the remote cases. Still has no effect on price of fish. You've gone ahead and used causality to blame high import prices on ludicrous things. It's simple economics, if operational costs are high, expect the good to have a higher price tag. Hazard pay for catching fish in 3rd world countries... if that was the case those diamond miners in Sierra Leone 2 decades ago would be filthy rich.. As to which fish is better, that's a whatever floats your boat question. Many apologies for the passionate reply, but seriously this sort of thing needs to be checked. I'm all for opinions, but do some reading and quit assuming ridiculous things Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
