Lyllie Posted October 11, 2015 Report Share Posted October 11, 2015 We currently have a tank full of fish with a strain of Ich that just won't die. What we've done so far: 4 treatments with Ich Attack. 3 days apart with a 50% water change in between each treatment as advised. Bumped tank temperature up to 32 degrees. Added airstones. Fish are coping fine with that. Salt water treatment at 1 tbspn per 10 gallons (couldn't go higher without killing clown loaches) Removed all gravel and excess ornaments and gravel cleaning base of tank every couple of days. Last night, after 2 days with the salt and heat multiple fish looked like they wouldn't make it through the night so we did a 50% water change to dilute the salt more and this morning they are swimming around, eating, looking healthier. But, the Ich is getting worse and worse. They are covered in this stuff and I have no idea what to do next. Not once have the white spots disappeared from them. It's like they aren't dropping off and moving to the next stage. I've even checked to see if it's velvet disease and not ich but it doesn't look like it and even if it was the heat and salt and lack of light should have killed that anyway. Any ideas would be very much appreciated. This has now been going on for weeks and I'm just about ready to pack it all in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thatsright99 Posted October 11, 2015 Report Share Posted October 11, 2015 Make sure the temp is off 32. After a couple of days it'll knock ur fish around to much. Don't use that treatment again. The WS now has a tolerance to it. What's the chemical makeup of it? Sounds pretty weak. You will need to try diff chemical composition. Feed the fish really well (food quality wise) to help boost them atm. Instead off adding salt to the water, use a saltwater dip. As in seawater strength. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyllie Posted October 11, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2015 Sorry forgot to put pics up before just to make sure it is ich. In one of them it's now looking more like Velvet Disease to me. Not sure though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyllie Posted October 11, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2015 Thanks. The treatment is Formaldehyde and Malachite Green, sorry don't have the bottle anymore as we used the whole thing. Fish are being fed their usual good food. Tried a saltwater bath on our big guy early on, did nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbeer Posted October 11, 2015 Report Share Posted October 11, 2015 I would probably go towards a copper based medicine - as much as I am not a fan of copper. Aquasonic Ichonex 100ml Normally the recommendation of raising the temperature is to reduce the lifespan of the bugs to be able to kill them. The treatments only kill the free swimming stage. If you have an inactive treatment and raise the temperature things will get worse. I googled the product you used and cannot find the active ingredient, so am choosing to go to an old treatment. In the old days (my father and mbunamads days, not mine) hobbyists used to keep a penny in the tank for the benefits of copper, or cut a small section of copper pipe and keep it in the tank to keep a low concentration of copper in the water. I would lower the temperature and try a copper based med. Any of our sponsors should be able to get it too you quickly, or there are some good stores in Ipswich. Good luck. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nini Posted October 11, 2015 Report Share Posted October 11, 2015 Stupid question -- there's no carbon in the filter, right? I had sticky ich after I bought guppies from a petshop, and tried a few different things that didn't work.. protozin was my saviour, with no more guppy/pep bn deaths. I love the stuff. Hopefully you get on top of it soon, healthy loaches make me worry enough when they play dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Tech Den Posted October 11, 2015 Report Share Posted October 11, 2015 Thanks. The treatment is Formaldehyde and Malachite Green, sorry don't have the bottle anymore as we used the whole thing. Fish are being fed their usual good food. Tried a saltwater bath on our big guy early on, did nothing. Did you have the lights on when you were medicating? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
none Posted October 11, 2015 Report Share Posted October 11, 2015 (edited) Copper can kill loaches - especially if your tank water is in the optimum parameters for the genus. Some Copper products carry warnings not to use with the genus. Some 'forms' of copper are less toxic than others. Formalin / Malachite Green is the best way to kill white spot. (Copper is excellent for "velvet"). Unfortunately the commercially available dose rates of form/malach. are not as strong as what is needed in extreme cases. (I am NOT advocating overdosing). Blue Planets Rapid White Spot Cure is very good. I haven't used your product so I can't comment on it but it clearly has not worked in your case. Thing is that water conditions need to be spot on as well. If there are underlying stressors it will impact on treatment. Ditto aggression in the tank. Whilst I understand the temp raise this in itself will be adding further stress. Keep the tank dark. I personally would back off the temp at least 2 degress. If they were my own fish I'd back off to 28 over a few days. You need as much dissolved oxygen as possible and higher temp reduces that in addition to adding stress. Unlikely your fish are eating whilst in that condition. I'd avoid feeding if that is the case - it's only going to worsen water conditions. Edited October 11, 2015 by none Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyllie Posted October 11, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2015 Thanks Steve! I've started lowering the temp and just popped down to the lfs for some copper treatment. All they had was Ichonex whose active ingredients were Copper Sulphate and Malachite Green so hopefully that will work. Unfortunately, I can't get to Tech Den or AoA today (sick kids). Nini, not a stupid question at all But no, we don't use carbon filters. And yes, my loaches love playing dead lol. Forever lying upside down and giving me a heart attack. So cute though, they even sleep side by side like they're spooning! Tech Den, no the lights have been off since we started treatment. Is that right? I thought I read somewhere that it can neutralise treatment and if it's Velvet they need photosynthesis to survive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbeer Posted October 11, 2015 Report Share Posted October 11, 2015 Sorry , forgot about the loach and copper issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyllie Posted October 11, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2015 Thanks none. No Steve, it's not a problem. We did read about that, but given how bad it is, and given the fact that we've already treated with a Formaldyhyde/Formalin Malachite Green mix, salt and heat and it's still getting worse, it's a risk we're willing to take. The copper might kill them, but the Ich or Velvet definitely will if we don't stop it. None, you're right though and we understand that the higher temps etc. cause stress. But given that we've tried so much and it's getting progressively worse it's just at a stage now where the added stress is somewhat of a necessary evil. The more gentle treatments just haven't worked. We've been battling this for weeks now and I just don't know what else we can do. What confuses me is that the white spots on the fish have never once diminished in all that time. Like they aren't dropping off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
th3f0rg0t3n Posted October 11, 2015 Report Share Posted October 11, 2015 (edited) pffffffft, goodluck with the fish. Edited October 11, 2015 by th3f0rg0t3n Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyllie Posted October 11, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2015 Thanks for that. Unfortunately as stated above they've already been given salt baths, formalin/formaldehyde, malachite green, increased temps, salt in tank etc. We've been at this for weeks now. Through all of that they've stayed active, eating normally etc. until just the last couple of days. Now some of them are just absolutely covered and are really stuggling. The thing I don't understand is why the parasites don't appear to be dropping off the fish at all. They just seem to be increasing by the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyllie Posted October 11, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2015 Sorry, that sounded a bit rude. I didn't mean it to. I'm just sad and disappointed. I'm a bit attached to my fish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tristan Posted October 11, 2015 Report Share Posted October 11, 2015 (edited) Not meaning to go against you mate, but unfortunately since white spot is in the water column a salt bath wont be much help. Back to basics... Temp to 32, salt and plenty of oxygenation. The key is to not give up even when the disease is looking like its cleared you need to continue treatment for a week +.... If it is absolutely paramount you need to use a medication just be easy with your dosage, have had to with cats before and had no deaths. Edited October 11, 2015 by Tristan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danwnz Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 (edited) I am not sure how much loaches deal with salt, as far as I was aware they are pretty intolerant to it. I do know that they will swim around in the salt bath then pass out for a second or two, and I was advised not to go over 20 minutes. As mentioned above Protozin I feel is one of the best from using it and reviews from others, much less hard hitting formulation (less stressful for already stressed fish). Copper will most likely kill your shrimp and snails also if you have any. Quality foods with Garlic will help you fish fight off the infections Also as mentioned above turn the light off, I have heard that the swimming tomites struggle to find targets in lower light Some useful information about ich can be found peteduction website BTW if you think it is Velvet or Ich, Protozin deals with both I also have multiple thermometers in one tank and they all show different readings, I did this when heat was working for me in an outbreak. So triple check that your temp is that temp Edited November 3, 2015 by danwnz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ex0h Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 (edited) <removed> /EDIT - Just saw your pics of the loaches after getting a bit too scroll happy. I'm out of ideas. Edited November 3, 2015 by ex0h Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
none Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 I do know that they will swim around in the salt bath then pass out for a second or two, and I was advised not to go over 20 minutes. No fish should ever be left in a high salinity salt bath for over 20 minutes. I would not leave a fish in a salt bath for anywhere near that! Longest I have ever left a fish in a salt bath is a few minutes. Salt baths put the fish under immense stress and can exascerbate bacterial infections. Clown Loaches can handle salt at minimal levels in tanks without issue. Years ago I kept them in many African tanks all of which ran salt. I have adult breeder Clown Loaches here now that I have used salt with. Having minute amounts of salt in the tank is totally different to having a fish in a high salinity salt bath and there needs to be clear distinction between the two as many people get poor advice on the topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lictoga Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 High levels of salt cause a osmotic shift of fluids from the cells into the solution. High con salt baths aim to kill the exsternal parasite in this way. It also dose the same to the fish. Esentialy you are dehydrating the animal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyllie Posted November 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 I should have updated on this and forgot all about it. We ended up losing every fish in the tank and it turned out not to be Ich, Velvet or some other parasite starting with a C that I can't remember now. We have no idea what it was, neither does our LFS guy or anyone else whose brain I've picked. But my best guess is that whatever it was came from frozen bloodworms so it was a bacteria or parasite that had the ability to be frozen and thawed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephiroth Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 Starting with C means its probably Costia, more aggro than your usual whitespot. Pity you lost the fish, i was having a good read through the thread trying to figure it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danwnz Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 High levels of salt cause a osmotic shift of fluids from the cells into the solution. High con salt baths aim to kill the exsternal parasite in this way. It also dose the same to the fish. Esentialy you are dehydrating the animal Yeah, spot on which is why if I salt bath it is a fraction of the salinity people say, not even 1/4 of sea water which was mention above, the salt baths are only to help the wounds. ICH will only be affected by the salt in it's free swimming stage by drying out the cells of the tomites Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danwnz Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 I should have updated on this and forgot all about it. We ended up losing every fish in the tank and it turned out not to be Ich, Velvet or some other parasite starting with a C that I can't remember now. We have no idea what it was, neither does our LFS guy or anyone else whose brain I've picked. But my best guess is that whatever it was came from frozen bloodworms so it was a bacteria or parasite that had the ability to be frozen and thawed. Wow, sorry to hear that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delapool Posted November 7, 2015 Report Share Posted November 7, 2015 I should have updated on this and forgot all about it. We ended up losing every fish in the tank and it turned out not to be Ich' date=' Velvet or some other parasite starting with a C that I can't remember now. We have no idea what it was, neither does our LFS guy or anyone else whose brain I've picked. But my best guess is that whatever it was came from frozen bloodworms so it was a bacteria or parasite that had the ability to be frozen and thawed.[/quote'] Sorry for your loss. Can I ask if the frozen bloodworms had been treated or irradiated at all? Always wondering his safe these products are I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
