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PlecFan

Breeding, genetics and hybrids

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Hi guys, so i think we have come to the conclusion that two of my guys mentioned in the "Help with ID" thread are probably hybrids. It's disappointing but a good lesson learned for this beginner to the land of L's. I really love the two I mentioned and their markings, plus both are really cruzy and laid back compared to some of my others like the chocolates and long fins.

Now i have never bred plecs or bn before and wanted to have a crack, more for my own enjoyment and interest but really want to know how the breeding genetics work. For instance if I wanted to bring back too lines out of the two mentioned how can I go about this? And is it even possible or will using a hybrid to start with then using the closest match to the true line a few generations down still only ever be a hybrid?

Also what is the general consensus toward hybrids? My gut says the more hybrids out there, the less likely our children's children will be able to access and enjoy true lines in the future... So I don't want to contribute to that. But can you breed (eventually) a true line back using a hybrid to start with?

is there any good info or books on breeding and genetics out there for these guys and if so, where do I look for some solid advice?

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I know there will be undoubtedly some people who will bark about the questions I'm asking, the always is on forums, but if i don't ask them I'll never know... I would never pretend to know "better" and will take all facts and genuine advice onboard enthusiastically.

While everyone has an opinion, and are well entitled to have them, I really only want the facts on the topic. I get that hybrids are undesirable due to the impact they can make on true lines in the future.... Hence asking the questions I have rather then just sticking some guys together and seeing what happens lol hopefully those with strong opinions will see that before spitting hate unessecarily .... Hopefully.....

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Just checking I got this right as never did well in biology :)

So this would be where you take something like a mule and if you could, bred back with say a line of horses to get a certain result? If I was right there, I'm wondering if that will be tricky?

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I think that's a bit extreme example it would be more like can you breed say a L006 crossed with a L123 back to a L006 (I made these numbers up). I also believe this would be a good discussion if people behave themselves and was in general discussion as a lot of knowledgable people may miss it here as it is not only relevant to catfish

Edited by Cam07
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Delapool- I guess that's on the right track and I guess it would be possible, but a mule is not a horse so it would be closer (in reference to the orients of the original question) to say a quarter horse to a paint.... And yes then over a few generations using outcrossing to either line it is possible and practised to breed back to the desired line...but that's horses....so Cam07 gave a closer example of the question I'm asking :) if that helps clear up the question ?

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technically it is possible to get a pure back from breeding pure lines into a hybrid over many generations. But this is a stupid thing to do unless you have only one individual or one sex left out of a species. The other thing is that you would require genetic testing to tell, because even between breeds of an animal (let alone species) visual identification is completely unreliable when it comes to hybrids/ mixed breeds, as this dog poster shows

http://love-a-bull.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Visual-ID_Pit-bull.jpg

genetics are the basis for everything about an animal, not just the way it looks and breeding from hybrids to get a pure animal is both unrealistic and reckless. Can you imagine how many more hybrids you would produce before getting even close to a pure animal? and the fish who is visually closer to pure may in fact be the furthest from pure genetically, you would need to test each and every fry to have a successful program and almost all of the fish tested would need to be culled.

TLDR; Don't breed hybrids

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DeBree - now that makes perfect sense. While the culling would be easy (gotta love the MJ) but your right...why do it??? Because I find genetics hugely fascinating! ;) anyone can buy two purebreds and breed purebreds... That takes no real skill and is done the world over.... So when the day comes where a line is in need of genetic assistance it is worth knowing how it's done.

I was reading one article on crossing a common bn with an albino bn and the percentage of what the fry are likely to be ... Wondered why anything else would be different?? http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22823

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DeBree - now that makes perfect sense. While the culling would be easy (gotta love the MJ) but your right...why do it??? Because I find genetics hugely fascinating! ;) anyone can buy two purebreds and breed purebreds... That takes no real skill and is done the world over.... So when the day comes where a line is in need of genetic assistance it is worth knowing how it's done.

I was reading one article on crossing a common bn with an albino bn and the percentage of what the fry are likely to be ... Wondered why anything else would be different?? http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22823

no, just no....

albino bn is the result of a genetic variant on a single allele on a single chromosome in the genetic material of a single species. That's like saying "i know how to bake cookies out of frozen dough log, why would opening a bakery that specialises in rare french baked goods be any different."

if you like genetics, go to uni and study biology, don't dirty up a gene pool for fun

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Breeding albino and common is different to breeding two different types of fish.

Albino is a recessive gene whereas there is no way of knowing what genes are recessive or dominate without genetic testing when breeding two different types.

You need to consider the reason they have L numbers is because no taxonomy or genetic testing has been done on them so no one really knows what species or sub species they are.

The other issue is that a genetic throwback can still happen after 10+ generations so if you could determine which fry have the right genetics and breed them together it will take at least 30 years before you could consider saying they are breeding true to form and pattern but with mixed genetics they will never be pure.

Cheers mick

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Ok so firstly let me just reiterate that while I find genetics interesting, DeBree I am not in anyway saying I'm going to go ahead and try and crack the genetic code, dirty up the gene pool or otherwise. I'm the first to admit (and anyone who has read any of my posts can plainly see) that I am a complete novice and would not be so ignorant. To start with I don't even know what the mix of the hybrids are to even start...but I enjoy the how, whys, when's shared by people that do know.

I'll clear up what I mentioned about "having a crack" - I have a pair of peps who are breeding age and have bred for previous owner - I'll have a crack at them. I have some common bn and some albinos - I'll have a crack at them. I have some long fin marbles, sail fins gold spots who I intend on breeding eventually when they are old enough - I'll have a crack at those too.

Since finding out my other two pictured below are likely hybrids I started trying to find out how these come about when (and please remember I'm very new to this) the above mentioned can be crossed and yet still produce color variations of the same breed and are not considered hybrids. I understand that the bottom two are likely hybrids of two breeds and going back to the OP - how this happens and why? What's the difference between breeding say a sail fin and a gold spot?

Are there any good reads on genetics for these guys?

post-17069-14711634639643_thumb.jpg

post-17069-14711634639846_thumb.jpg

Edited by PlecFan
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sorry for being harsh, but i believe there should be no ground given in regards to hybrids. By all means have a crack at breeding pure species, that's partially what the hobby is all about :) . The sailfins will not breed in an aquarium situation and will require a pond if you want to go that far.

a sail fin and a gold spot are separate species, and if they were to breed would produce hybrids.

I would start by rereading the link you provided to the planet catfish discussion

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No I didn't mean breeding the sail fin and gold spot together but was just giving an example of what I have currently on hand and would like to have a go at. Yes we have began drawing designs for our pond, just got to clear some veges first tho! I will be asking more on pond set ups at a later date too 😉

So, does anyone know of a good genetics book for these guys? Try as I might I tend to obsorb info better when studying from textbooks then chasing snipits off the internet lol (probably a trend ingrained from my 4 years at uni studying psychology ;) perhaps your right DeBree and I should have done genetics....but I'm only ever interested in specific genetics ie, my fish, my dogs, my horses lol everything else is irrelevant to my life ;) )

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The genetic conversations bring out the passionate people.

Just to clarify I am against hybrids.

I don't even breed coloured with albino variants of fish, i sold all my bristlenose a few years back after breeding them for 10 years and I recently wanted some more. I got three pairs of commons that threw albino before I found a pair of commons that only threw common which annoyed me slightly.

In Australia common bn are a hybrid of whatever came in years ago so none are really pure but they breed true to form.

Back to topic, as I mentioned earlier the issue with catfish is that no one has done taxonomy sailfin and goldspots are L083 and L081, all this means is that they were collected from different rivers or parts of a river system.

They could be a locality variant or a completely different species, also they aren't bred in tanks they need dirt walls and dig their own caves.

Hybrids are a big issue with L numbers in aus, most come about from people with not alot of knowledge having a few different types in a display and when they breed the owners see $$$$ and sell them as whatever they look closest too.

I think the top fish could have 134 and 066 in it and the bottom could be a combo of 202, 002, 397.

Without knowing for sure it's impossible to say, i sent the pics to a mate and he is unsure of the types used.

The big issue is the top one has a snub nose and the bottom one has pectoral fins that don't look right, these defects make them culls even if they were pure.

Cheers mick

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So these are hybrids?

goldspots have large fins anyway and are commonly mistakenly referred to as sailfins

the reason we have L numbers is because of the lack of scientific information on them, unfortunately this includes genetic knowledge

we can always use more people studying genetics ;)

Edited by DeBree420
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I think the Jack heard that comment Mick lol he would be happy to assist... I have enough tank space at the moment to keep them separate plus they are too young to breed tho so will disappoint the old boy this time and give him his normal feeders tonight ;)

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