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mlaser

Illness/mystery death Advice on what to do next

By mlaser, in Help with Fish Health, Diseases and Water Quality

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mlaser

mlaser

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Good morning people,

Picked up 10 cardinal tetras on Friday to add to the 4 that I've had for a few months now and while trying to count them I noticed two missing.  One is an original and the other is a new one.  I found the carcass of the little one but haven't found the original one.  Since then 3 more of the new additions have gone missing with one confirmed dead.  I tested the water and Ammonia, Nitrate and Nitrite are all zero, PH is 7.0.  I did have 2 ottocinclus die and a congo tetra die about a month ago (never found the bodies of the otto's they just disapeared and assumed they died).  I noticed the congo was panting and not swimming around much so I isolated  him and gave him some medicine (melafix) but he died about 5 days later.  I kept an eye on the rest and everyone seemed fine.  My wife tells me that today another congo is panting a bit but otherwise swimming around etc.  


I'm just not sure what to do....if anything.  

Is is possible that there was a bacteria in the tank that killed the cardinals in 2 days?

Should I dose the whole tank with melafix as a precaution? 

 

Problem:- Dead fish - Update from wife: one of the cherry barbs is being "weird and swimming around in circles", one congo was panting a bit last night but they are all hiding atm so wife couldnt tell, 4 dead cardinal tetras.

Ph:- 7.0
 
Ammonia:- 0.0

Nitrate:- 0.0

Nitrite:- 0.0 

Gh:- 214.8

Kh:- 214.8

Size of tank:- 240L

Temperature °C:- 28

Been running for:- 2.5 months

Filtration:- eheim 2217 + otto internal pf800n

Fish in tank:- 
1 x spiney eel

3 x black widow tetras

3 x congo tetras

8 x cherry barbs

9 x cardinal tetras (there was 14 as of friday)

4 x ottocinclus

2 x common bristlenose

various cherry shrimp 

Plants in Tank:- Val, red ludwigia, 3 x crypts, 1 x sword, HM, APONOGETON CRISPUS, 2 x marble queen....cant remember the rest.

Feeding:- Tropical fish pellets, three pinches at night for two days then on the third day they get frozen bloodworm.

Recent Medication Treatments:- Nil

Last water change:- 30% a week ago.

Water change normally done weekly, didnt have time this weekend.

 

Cheers for any assistance.

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Donny@ageofaquariums

Donny@ageofaquariums

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I'd inspect gill tissue on next casualty, if its pale and eroded you likely have some sort bacterial infection. Dropping temperature to 24degC and treating with something brutal like wardley fungus aid might save the day. Or the meds might kill the fish.... 

No chance you have a phone microscope to get a photo of gill tissue?

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mlaser

mlaser

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I'll see if i can find the next casualty and inspect them.

The only introduction before the congo died was the otto's of which two died, but the otto's had been in for atleast 2 weeks before the congo got sick and since then no other fish have been sick.  

edit* wife found the missing cardinals that she thought died last night, they were hiding under the goldvine.  So still 5 dead total.

I'm pretty sure when I get home i'm going to try and catch the cardinals and put them in the 20l tank.

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Very good advice given by Winston above. That is the first thing I'd be looking at. I would certainly not be putting a dye based medication in for no reason.

The other thing to bear in mind (although unlikely to be the primary cause may be a contributing factor) is that Black Widows can on occasion be aggressive much in the same way as Serpae Tetras can. Stress of aggression can cause heavy breathing although the other behaviour you describe does sound like poisoning.

If in doubt ALWAYS do waterchanges. Do as large a waterchange as possible matching temp etc when doing so.

 

Cheers

 

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mlaser

mlaser

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It's pretty small pinches....i think, I give one pinch in my other tank which has 6 fish (4 x guppies and 2 x dwarf mollies) and 3 pinches in the main tank which has 28 fish.  It's all gone in less than a minute.  I've actually been curious if I've been feeding them too much.

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mlaser

mlaser

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The only thing close to aerosol spayed in that area would be my daughters hair conditioner, but that would be atleast 2 meters away and it's not aerosol just a spray bottle.  The tank is half sealed i would say, front half has the light and the rear half there used to be an above tank filter (aqua one AR980) but I removed it when I switched to canister.  I haven't used chemicals on the garden in a few weeks (feed n weed).

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2 hours ago, mlaser said:

The only thing close to aerosol spayed in that area would be my daughters hair conditioner, but that would be atleast 2 meters away and it's not aerosol just a spray bottle.  The tank is half sealed i would say, front half has the light and the rear half there used to be an above tank filter (aqua one AR980) but I removed it when I switched to canister.  I haven't used chemicals on the garden in a few weeks (feed n weed).

It takes very little in the way of chemicals to kill fish. I would not be spraying anything in the same room as a fish tank - let alone 2 metres away.

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As a generalisation - and only a generalisation - Formalin is effective in treating a range or diseases across most spectrums. It is sold as "White Spot Cure" by Blue Planet. It treats far more than just white spot. It has Malachite Green in it. While this is a dye and while I don't like other dye based cures - the 'dye' is a small element and the treatment will be invisable after a day unlike "Multi-Cures" "Fungus Cures" etc which will also likely destroy your plants. Triple-Sulpha is a product very effective at treating a range of diseases including some bacterial infections. It's effectiveness at treating imported fish is dramatically reduced by the concentrations used in Asian fish farms (where the fish come from). They are my two "go to" medications. HOWEVER I do not believe it is appropriate to treat without at least an educated guess in what you are treating. Hence the advice to take the fish to a local shop (along with a water sample). Always do a double dose of neutraliser when doing a waterchange. I strongly recommend Fraction made by Continuum. The previous advice RE: waterchanges is the best immediate thing you can do at this point.

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Donny@ageofaquariums

Donny@ageofaquariums

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Going off the bloody mess, its looking bacterial. Any chance of snipping gill scale and checking colour of gills? I know its a tiny fish, but if they are a healthy red/pink then I am barking up the wrong tree.

 

This time of year tho, 90% of issues tend to be columnaris style external bacterial infections. They are 'waking up' with the slightly warmer weather. Just as the first cold snap heralds a thousand 'my fish has whitespot' phonecalls.....  so does the first warm weather herald heaps of finrot and faded body patch cases.

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mlaser

mlaser

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Hes a bit frozen atm, didn't know what to do so I put him in a snap bag and froze him in case he was still a tiny bit alive. I'm also not sure how to snip a Gill scale. I'll see if I can find a YouTube video. On a side another cardinal looks to be losing some colour. I'm going to set up my old 20l tank and try and take them out. 

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Donny@ageofaquariums

Donny@ageofaquariums

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Not so useful if frozen.

Its true, as none alluded, that I am prone to rushing in with a heavy hand in these situations. I can only justify by saying I have suffered terrible terrible damage to livestock from bacterials and am loath to suffer them again.

Making a solid ID of the nasty is first step to choosing right med and reducing any colateral damage from its use.

I would say we havent done that yet.... 

Even so. I would still treat this as a tank wide situation and not just focus on fish showing symptoms. Often it will be too late for them. Brutal yes but honest.

I dont think any of us here are vets..... but if we are.....  thoughts?

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