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shon982

How species are given variant names?

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Just wondering if anybody could clear this up for me

it sort of ties in with the hybird discussions but

For example a Frontosa (I dont know much about frontosas though so im going to use made up variants)

1. Say a Frontosa from B and a Frontosa from C were to interbreed

would the frontosa BC be a hybrid?, where the only difference was where in the lake they are found and their colours which is what them distinguishable

in the wild they wouldn't breed I assume since they would be in different parts of the lake; they are the same species though...so thats where I'm confused

2. And if a fish like a Frontosa from B is from one part of a lake and has different colouration to a Frontosa from C, is the only difference that they are from a different lake and have different colour? how do people classify species from different parts of the same place if colouration is the only difference?

like all the different types of cyprichromis leptosoma or tropheus

unless theres other things that depict the naming of a species... depending on the answer to this question, I might have another question

If that didnt make sense :lol: then um heres a shorter version

I'm trying to find out how and why one species of fish is named slightly different (extra bit in their normal species name) and is it only due to where they are found and the colouration differences?

and secondly, is it considered a hyrbid if the same species mixes but they are different variants (different colours)

since in the wild it wouldn't happen

and also for example with Tropheus, they can interbreed, they are considered the same species (sp. Tropheus?) but have varients like moorii and bemba, is it purely because of colour and region differences again? (their colours are very different to different species, just like discus fish come in many colours)

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Species have a genus and species name. There naming is done via the scientific community.

For example:

Frontosa are three species Cylphotilapia frontosa, Cyphotilapia gibberosa and the other undescribed species. (fronty experts correct me if I stuff this bit up)

Tropheous is a genus name with a number of species Tropheus abbectensm tropheus dubosie, Tropheus moorii Tropheous polli (tropheous experts correct me if I stuff this bit up)

To add another one I know better Apistogramma aggassizii.

We hobbyists are dreadful with names and tend to use common names. Localaties describe where it was caught.

Localaties can be very important. For example to the scientific community at the moment the aggassizii are all lumped in one group. However there are lots of colour variaties from different locations. Suggestion is that we may well be dealing with more than one species.

Consider fronties - we used to think simply - 6 bar or 7 bar. Now we get wild caught we have "Aussie 6 bar", "Aussie 7 bar" and the rest with localaties. It is possible that the aussi species are hybrid. The whole thing becomes even worse when considering that in the lake there is fish with 6 bar on one side and 7 bar on another.

Personally I am inclined to suggest if a fish is wild caught with a localaty - breed it with others from that localaty. Preserve the colour of that variant - and possibly avoid hybrids as science catches up.

Hopefully this helps.

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Perfect example is Geophagus altifrons, a large Geophagus with widespread distribution throughout the northern part of South America. With evolution taking place over a long period of time, I can't even imagine how many years, what was once the same core fish has developed different traits depending on the conditions of the river/country they reside in. This is usually very minor changes - different patterning in the caudal fin, slightly different scale patterning, etc.

Very similiar to A. agassizii as gingerbeer has mentioned, which has multiple variants from both Peru and Brazil.

In regards to your question regarding interbreeding of these same-species locale variants, I'm unsure about Apistogramma, but the G. altifrons variants apparently show no interest in breeding with different variants (in fact I have no evidence anywhere of true Geophagus hybridising, besides the Orange Head variants perhaps). I can't really help you here. From a technical/scientific point of view they might not be classified as a hybrid, but preserving location names and lines for the future should be considered vital, especially for species we can no longer legally import.

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Thanks, that clears things up for me :egrin:

Yeah I thought I might as well make an effort to learn about things like this, I'm only young and have been interested in keeping fish for many years

So I want to know more about things like this to build up my knowledge :)

And yes I do plan to preserve the location names, variants of fish, and the pure lines and I have never thought otherwise

That is just something which I believe everybody should be doing

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also consider the texas explosion in the states atm

with the great interest in local variants of the H. carpintes

such at Rio salto, vontehillo, the old school escondido and there are a few more i forget.

There is much debate whether these are just locality variants or new species.

For the most part the look fairly similar differences in pearl patterns being the only thing uncommon

with exception of the rio salto species which has a different body shape.

The collection point names are important as they do describe a fish that looks different to others from different locations, which means hobbyists can pick and choose which one instead of sayin the one with the rounder spots

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This is what I was trying to get at in the bn thread. Fish have had descriptions written since the 1800's this I agree with. But use in the trade has only been around in recent years especially here in Australia.

Besides the frontosa another that springs to mind is the johani, I remember we used to just buy Johani that was it some had stripes some had checker board pattern. They then changed this to checkered and striped, later again it became likoma and fort maguire. Then later still the Checkered became interuptus. By this time it was too late the 2 lines had been interbred. Even though scientifically the checkered had been interuptus for longer than the industry used the name.

It has only really been since Ad konings came out here in the 90's on his first visit that the trade started to look at the area classifications. For us people that have been in the industry a long time it was confusing at first, but the newer members have picked it up quickly because this is what they have learnt.

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yeah i think its important to keep the names

keeps the variants separate.

i haven't been involved with fish for very long, but im assuming its what happened to the H. cyanoguttatus and H. Carpintes lines. and now are muddled together.

I think the texas specimens in aus are a mess compared to the wild caught we see on American forums.

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Ah okay, thanks for everyones input :egrin:

I get it now, variant names are just to tell the differences of colour and other minor things but they are still the same species

And yeah like you guys said, sometimes its harder to tell if its a new species or just a variant

:)

But what happens when two of the same species may interbreed? (difference being variant)

I believe that should still be a hybrid...

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Two different variants may be a hybrid ( some variants when scientifically examined will be put into a new species) - or may be just a poorly bred fish (losing the uniqueness of the fish - like Aussie 6 bar fronties) - depends on the fish.

Science is a changing thing and the names are constantly changing for the fish. The thing is there are only so many scientists who have an interest in fish - hence newly discoverred fish are often scientifically undescribed or just lumped in with something else until scientists get round to it.

The hobby has too deal with this and has via for Apistos, A numbers , and for plecos - L numbers. They are a simple method so we can talk a common language unil science catches up with us.

An interesting part of Mergus Cichlid Atlas Book 2 (the dwaf cichlid book) is the fact that rather than publish the scientific descipriptions of new species in a journal, the first desciption of a number of species is in the book. Upset the scientific community but interesting as the readers of the book are possibly in a unique position to critic the validity. I like it as science is part of what we do as fish hobbyists.

Steve

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yeah steve, thats what I was thinking

because if they mixed it would alter the variants

well that pretty much answers all my questions

:)

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I thought that 6 bar frontosa were not so long ago

reclassified as a different species and are no longer

actually "frontosa". I remember this sparking debate on this forum

as there was a push to provide correct scientific names in the

trader section. The upshot of that debate was that common names

are acceptable but it should be recognised that scientific classification is

important if you are species specific ie. Fine to sell "6 bar frontosa"

but be aware they are not frontosa.

Don't know if that is technically correct but htat was the debate at the time.

I think what that means is that there are species variants that may be hybrids

and if they are around long enough and are a pure consistant variant then

the science fish nerds will re classify to acknowledge them as their own species.

I think. :econf:

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