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I just didn't see the need to use it if I was showing fish I would most likely use it but 4 guppies and bristlenose I just use what works 4 them flakes and pellets and frozen brine shrimp and blood worms and cucumber and zucienie and letus

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I agree with the above. Although I do not use this product I have seen it used for many many years to no effect.

This product does not make fish sterile or infertile - however it can effect breeding as the usual colour morphs of the female and male become the same, thus confusing them as the female looks and possible acts like a male.

I do not agree with shops feeding this with out advertising the fact that they do as all that then happens is the unsuspecting LFS buyer takes his/her fish home and they loose colour reasonably quickly. I understand the use of it to sell fish easier, but there needs to be some rules about false advertising to use this and not disclose it.

This is also a great way of identifying unknown peacock females when you are unsure - a short period of time on this product will show adult male colouration, and thus allow you to ID them.

It is also widely used in display tanks that are predominantly male - thus allowing for a greater display quality

This product does not contain hormones to the best of my knowledge - I may be proven wrong and am happy for that, but in my experience this does not contain any at all.

Does this also mean that we need to look at the side usuage of NLS Colour enhancers - interesting as this is one of the most widely used brands.

I agree that we need to stop the rumours and the here say regarding this product, however listening to experienced breeders and looking up some information does not take that long - just because you have a moral objection to the use of this does not mean that the product needs to be rubbished when there are specific and relevant uses for it.

Just my opinion - but thats the beauty of opinions, we all have one, but many of us need to remember to respect others opinions, and my god, we may all just learn from them - I am more than happy to be corrected....... but perhaps facts not emotions please.

cheers

Kadango

Spot on

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Yea that hikari is a more nutrious pellet than the white crane imho. I still would not use it as the sole food for a fish, buuut its a better sole food than white crane.

Feeding foods designed for delicate line bred fish, (like parrots, discus or tropheus) has always been a reliable trick for spoiling the less fussy species.

Exactly... I have a container sitting here, for experimental purposes. The list of ingredients in the "Super R" is hardly a turn on...

Frenchy :)

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White crane has been around quite a few years now and has stood the tests of time. It definitely colours up fish!

People used to be afraid of mobile phone radiation or harmful side effects of micro wave ovens but these are mainstream now.

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I had a very interesting discussion one night with Steve Baines in regards to white crane.

To summarise Steve's main points.

It doesn't contain anything untoward, it's just a mix of naturally found colour enhancers, just in one small package. I bit like vitamin tablets that have a bucket load of vitamins in one little tablet.

It really works best with fish that have long intestines, namely herbivore and omnivore species. Doesn't work as well with carnivorous fish that have shorter intestines.

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I had a very interesting discussion one night with Steve Baines in regards to white crane.

To summarise Steve's main points.

It doesn't contain anything untoward, it's just a mix of naturally found colour enhancers, just in one small package. I bit like vitamin tablets that have a bucket load of vitamins in one little tablet.

It really works best with fish that have long intestines, namely herbivore and omnivore species. Doesn't work as well with carnivorous fish that have shorter intestines.

You sure he got that the right way around? I know a particular store that had a lot of trouble with Tropheus & mbunas on this. They were one of the first distrubitors too.

Frenchy :)

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White crane has been around quite a few years now and has stood the tests of time. It definitely colours up fish!

People used to be afraid of mobile phone radiation or harmful side effects of micro wave ovens but these are mainstream now.

That theroy varies too, re test of time. Cause the ingredients have changed, from when this first hit the market.

Frenchy :)

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You sure he got that the right way around? I know a particular store that had a lot of trouble with Tropheus & mbunas on this. They were one of the first distrubitors too.

Frenchy :)

So many people had issues with bloat and feeding this food back in the day... I know people who tried it just to confirm / deny the rumours and within days they had serious bloat issues. It's funny that this factor is so often overlooked in these debates. Personally I detest the stuff. Either way the knowledge of the potential for bloat needs to be out there. If the new formula has reduced this I have no idea..

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So many people had issues with bloat and feeding this food back in the day... I know people who tried it just to confirm / deny the rumours and within days they had serious bloat issues. It's funny that this factor is so often overlooked in these debates. Personally I detest the stuff. Either way the knowledge of the potential for bloat needs to be out there. If the new formula has reduced this I have no idea..

Well, that is the thing... I seen fish drop dead/bloated on this in the store, that I think first got it in. They used to feed it to everything. I know of 3 other shop owners that tried this too & their fish dropped dead too.... Then the arguements that followed after...

I know the protein content with the food has dropped about 10% on the labelling. Used to high 40s% from memory. I can't remember the list of ingredients, would need the prehostoric posts here, or the old Qld Cichlid forum. I never really agreed with the hormone thing, I just went with very high protein content & there was something in the food they couldn't digest, or fish reacted with...

I have a container laying around, was going t do an experiment.... But meh, there are so many quality foods out there.... Why bother? I prefer to see the fish, come & go with their colours, to suit their mood

Frenchy :)

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Well, that is the thing... I seen fish drop dead/bloated on this in the store, that I think first got it in. They used to feed it to everything. I know of 3 other shop owners that tried this too & their fish dropped dead too.... Then the arguements that followed after...

I know the protein content with the food has dropped about 10% on the labelling. Used to high 40s% from memory. I can't remember the list of ingredients, would need the prehostoric posts here, or the old Qld Cichlid forum. I never really agreed with the hormone thing, I just went with very high protein content & there was something in the food they couldn't digest, or fish reacted with...

I have a container laying around, was going t do an experiment.... But meh, there are so many quality foods out there.... Why bother? I prefer to see the fish, come & go with their colours, to suit their mood

Frenchy :)

Exactly!

I think it was the same as Protein Pellet. It swelled once consumed and can lead to blockages and infection in the extremely long intestines of Africans.

Likely we both knew the same stores owners back in the day - I remember the cursing very clearly lol

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Bloat is a topic that gets me stirred up [MENTION=9246]Donny@ageofaquariums[/MENTION]. Everyone call a fat fish bloated, while bloat is a symptom that can have a number of causes. there was a great article in a TFC magazine I read within the last couple of years.

On topic, it is amazing how hobbyists have turned and there are some legitimate uses for the foods we used to think were evil, while tetrabits was one of the best orange blasting food out there and was always OK.

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Bloat imho is never just food related unless its just constipation. Has anyone noticed how well a single tropheus does in a Malawi tank? Its mental they eat like pigs and just don't die.

And yet with single species tanks you feed high protein and just wipe them. This is in part I believe because of the careful general diet. So they grow gut microbes for that food. When high protein shows up they do not have those microbes and get into trouble with food rotting rather than being digested.

The answer could be as simple as innoculating a herbivore aquarium using squeezing from a carnivore one.

Could lol.

Gut flora/fauna aside there is also the pecking order domestic violence and psychological stress in single species tropheus tanks.

Any new food.... too much at first is a bad idea. You cycle a fishes guts just as you cycle a filter. Build up new foods slowly over 2 to 3 weeks to let right microbes breed into balance. If you can jump start with right microbes from another tank then all the better.

EG

Baby bristlenose hatched from a tumbler.... do better once they move from egg yolk to feeding, if you add some gravel vac water from parents tank.

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Bloat imho is never just food related unless its just constipation. Has anyone noticed how well a single tropheus does in a Malawi tank? Its mental they eat like pigs and just don't die.

And yet with single species tanks you feed high protein and just wipe them. This is in part I believe because of the careful general diet. So they grow gut microbes for that food. When high protein shows up they do not have those microbes and get into trouble with food rotting rather than being digested.

The answer could be as simple as innoculating a herbivore aquarium using squeezing from a carnivore one.

Could lol.

Gut flora/fauna aside there is also the pecking order domestic violence and psychological stress in single species tropheus tanks.

Any new food.... too much at first is a bad idea. You cycle a fishes guts just as you cycle a filter. Build up new foods slowly over 2 to 3 weeks to let right microbes breed into balance. If you can jump start with right microbes from another tank then all the better.

EG

Baby bristlenose hatched from a tumbler.... do better once they move from egg yolk to feeding, if you add some gravel vac water from parents tank.

Same thing happens in humans too, re gut bacteria.

[MENTION=231]gingerbeer[/MENTION], the formula in White Crane has changed. Yeh sure, people can argue the causes of bloat, did they really have bloat, what is bloat? Personally done a lot of reading/treating of Tropheus this last 2 weeks...

Bottom line is & you guys can feel free to argue & nit pick whatever you like. I personally saw a lot of fish roll, those years ago... Everyone was keen to try this "new magic fish food" I think it is funny all of the LFS owners on the GC who tried the food, then swore of it (except first supplier)... No other factors changed in the tanks. Fish just bloated up & droppped dead.

Frenchy :)

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Bloat imho is never just food related unless its just constipation.

Donny I never though I'd see the day but I've got to call B.S on this post - perhaps you are trying to be a bit too clever...?

Talking bloat "Malawi Bloat" - not Dropsy - if food doesn't cause bloat why aren't we all feeding Protein Pellet designed for Barra... Actually I Remember very clearly the few shops in SEQ that tried Protein pellet and no surprises - wiped out all their fish as did the White Crane as Frenchy has referred to. I even remember very clearly a few breeders that were going to "cut costs' and feed aquaculture pellet. Results were identical.

Of course constipation is involved - fish get a blockage but its the infection that then results that is the disease. 100% caused by food (although not the only cause). Not constipation in itself - but the inability to digest the food leads to blockage - leads to disease.

Having studied this under microscopes - seen the evidence countless times - there is no doubt.

Hence I feed one of the most expensive foods - 4.5kg a week no less - and my costs are through the roof - though diet related bloat is not something I ever have to worry about.

Cheers

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:)

Firstly [MENTION=8516]none[/MENTION] is a true guru that walks the walk.

To doubt his experience is a mistake, and his advice is a gift thats basically golden.

Causality is the agency or efficacy that connects one process (the cause) with another (the effect). Thanks wiki.

Yes you can feed a food and have a fish drop dead..... and therefor say the food killed the fish.

But why did it kill the fish?

What if the food merely sets in motion a series of events that cause the fishes death....... and what if certain criteria need to be met for this to occur?

Did you know bears are carnivores. All bears. Meaning they have guts setup for digesting meat.

The same is true of cats and dogs.

But what about pandas?

They eat bamboo right?

They are part of the carnivore group right?

Give them anti-biotics that wipe out the bears gut microbes.... and they will starve to death on a diet of boo.

From a microscope we can tell lots of things about microbes, but we can't tell how the different microbes are interacting.

It's SUPER complicated.

Hence my comment that its not just the food.

Theres always another factor.

Our modern over medicated fish are just not home to the sort of digest anything microbes that wild fish are. We run prophylactic meds, hit suspects with broad spectrum shotguns and feed with simplistic blends compared to the chaotic mixes a fish eats while foraging.

Perhaps I am trying to sound a bit too clever considering this is all a bit new to me, but the more I read the more it just makes sense. I am talking about this is with a lot of peers and its all quite interesting. Certainly pro-biotics are going to become the new med for many of our internal bloating problems in fish. The problem microbes get out of wack because something trashes the good ones...... and when we try kill the problem ones with clumsy antibiotics..... we kill more good ones.

Anti-biotics and other non-selective meds, do not permanently reduce the overall numbers of microbes in the gut. Instead they reduce the diversity of microbes.

We are on the cusp of some interesting break thrus with fish foods, driven mostly by the cost of fish meal and the fussyness of aquaculture consumers.

This will trickle into the hobby.

max respec'

Don.

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If anyone's Tropheus ever get bloat. Metro used with Nifurpirinol is what is highly suggested. As mentioned above, there is a secondary bacterial infection... Shame the anti biotic, used for fish isn't here, or to hard to source. I managd to find an anti bacterial with Nitrofurazone & Furazolidone. Similar compounds, just slower acting.

It works :)

Frenchy :)

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If you wipe the gut microbes, you then need to recolonize the gut to get a healthy tropheus. The complication of this is high. You want the microbes to colonize in correct order, and increase in diversity at a suitably slow pace.

Thats a huge ask for an aquarist.

Cichlids are opportunistic feeders. A tropheus would not pass up a juicy ball of midge larva in the wild, or a sudden run of sardines.

Malawi bloat is I suspect partly due to the change in gut microbes brought on by the conditions in captivity.

Its a theory only, but it seems to mirror what people are finding in aquaculture fish.

A less varied diet, less varied microbe environment and the impact of meds/antibiotics..... all change the gut microbes of captive fish.

Don.

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