FIIK Posted December 20, 2011 Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 Hi Peeps, I have had this discussion with many a member and have had mixed reply's. The issue is in regard to water parameter's regarding certain species, for example softer water for Discus vs Harder water for Africans just to use a simple example. My argument is do particular species truly know whats best for them (with exemptions to F listed stock). If the humble e.yellow has been captive breed in Aus since its introduction then surely its wild water requirements are almost void. While I certainly agree its great to replicate its wild requirements, how much does this truly benefit the fish. If a captive breed fish (e.yellow) has been breed in neutral water, sold onto a perspective buyer who then bumps the ph up to 8 and increase the GH would this have the opposite effect. Hi GH level's can affect species in different ways ie..egg fertility, functioning of organs and growth. Please share your thoughts. Regards Luke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gollys Posted December 20, 2011 Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 I kind of agree - it is abit of an enigma. Tetras such as rummies are supposed to like low PH but when I have brought them from my LFS their water PH is often 7.2 or above. But my tank is 6.4 - 6.6 - (which is perfect for rummys) they seem to survive more than we think. I guess it is more important to keep the right types together - such as ones that thrive more in lower PH together and vice-versa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DVS969 Posted December 20, 2011 Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 I have often thought the same thing Luke, If a fish has been born into certain parameters and lives it's whole life in these conditions and suddenly is bought by another african keeper who is keeping more natural parameters then I can't see how it could be good for the fish. I guess an arguement could be that the fish would intially need to get used to the new conditions but will be in better health once accustomed to the water. I am moving my Apisto Caca's to a lower PH tank as I've been told the eggs don't like hatching in high PH water, So whether breeding is a big reason for changing parameters Im not sure, I know I have never done it other than for breeding purposes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott95 Posted December 20, 2011 Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 I have to agree with this. If the fish has lived its whole life and is doing fine in the water specifics then to change those water specifics will change the fish's environment from which it has lived its whole life to somthing that it has never lived in before Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FIIK Posted December 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 but will be in better health once accustomed to the water[/i] . This is my point though Nathan, Will it truly be in better health. Generations have possibly been raised in bare bottom tanks with standard town water at 7.2 Whats to say that the best parameters for this certain fish are not the ones it just came from ?? The most important thing to me is the water is "healthy" in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pet_City Posted December 20, 2011 Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 I believe that a few decades of captive breeding can't outwit what thousands of years of natural selection. Yes they survive, but is it ideal? When you look at the "internals" of fish, they have developed different ways with coping with their natural enviroments. Just because they aren't wild caught doesn't mean they don't react to their "natural" environments. For example, We have just got in Apistogramma Diplotaenia in from an Asian fish farm. Beautiful tiny little creatures, bred in bare bottom tanks. When they came to me, even after settling in their tanks they are a beautiful white blue. About 5 days after having them I got worried about their little mouths eating. So I put fine grained sand in half their tank. Immediately they coloured even more brilliantly, made little caves in the sand under their ornaments and started acting like "apistos". They are the only sand dwelling apisto - and knew exactly what to do with it - and even started courting the little female. Have you ever wondered why discus have a thick slime coat? Its not just to feed the babies, its to survive in an acidic environment - among other reasons. Look at how amazingly red a rummynose is when you do lower the pH. Biotopes are there for a reason and if you don't believe me, check out Bleher's websites when the fish actually react to a proper change in their levels and environments. For a true example - put it in this perspective - Would a clownfish be happy in less salty lower pH water, just because it was born into less stable than oceanic parameters? (Which happens all the time) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barefootexplorer Posted December 20, 2011 Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 I tend to think the other way, I'm all for trying to replicate "natural" water conditions where possible. My main interest in this area is water hardness and I'll tell you why. OSMOSIS! Contrary to common belief fish don't "Drink" water! Their "fluid levels" are dictated by osmosis which in turn is affected by hardness!!! A "hard" water fish will spend its life over-saturated in "soft" water and vice-a-versa. Dehydration & over-saturation will both affect the fish in the same way it affects us! Just my thoughts on the subject anyway. We all keep fish in water that doesn't comply with what our textbooks tell us and we get away with it but it doesn't mean it's not having an adverse affect on them though! For those interested a good place to get a better understanding of Osmosis and how it affects organ function etc is here: Awesome Osmosis Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerbeer Posted December 20, 2011 Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 It is a real interesting question. I am inclined to think that the answer is once you get away from the wild caught regime some fish are more adaptable to conditions than others. I certainly advocate quite strongly the keep things stables is more important than keeping the right pH and have potential big changes in water conditions. Once you get to more sensitive fish - and Discus do not make the list - then the water conditions become more important. To go to my main love, some apistos are very adapatable and will even breed in hard alkaline water, others forget it until you crash the pH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarah1234 Posted December 20, 2011 Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 IMO most fish are pretty tolerant regarding water parameters. Though in some cases, like my macrostoma, I keep their ph down and water soft to encourage spawning behaviour. If they were just for display I don't know if I would bother so much, as long as the parameters are stable and not ridiculously to one end of the scale most fish are pretty easy going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquaaddict Posted December 20, 2011 Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 Hi Peeps,I have had this discussion with many a member and have had mixed reply's. The issue is in regard to water parameter's regarding certain species, for example softer water for Discus vs Harder water for Africans just to use a simple example. My argument is do particular species truly know whats best for them (with exemptions to F listed stock). If the humble e.yellow has been captive breed in Aus since its introduction then surely its wild water requirements are almost void. While I certainly agree its great to replicate its wild requirements, how much does this truly benefit the fish. If a captive breed fish (e.yellow) has been breed in neutral water, sold onto a perspective buyer who then bumps the ph up to 8 and increase the GH would this have the opposite effect. Hi GH level's can affect species in different ways ie..egg fertility, functioning of organs and growth. Please share your thoughts. Regards Luke. im guessing its all to do with the "G" spot lol in reality, i guess all you can do is make subtle adjustments, most fish seem to adapt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ash Posted December 20, 2011 Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 Imo fluctuations in TDS ph and salinity etc can't be as good for a fishes health and well being as a consistently stable environment. I still haven't done a WC... must be going on 10 months now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
