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Grumundi

Unethical Treatment of Fish and the Impact on the Hobby.

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Yea AQW would be good if they didnt sell unethical died and tattooed fish aswell as genetically modified fish without properly disclosing this and the process to the customer.

But I guess profit comes before the well being of animals sometimes.

Grum.

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Genetically modified fish ???

Now would that be the guppies ? or the mollies, angels, discus ??? :)

Or would that be the vast majority of fish sold in ANY shop.

Taking it further maybe it would be the dogs, or cats, or birds we keep, or just ALL domestic animals.

So other than that, what species are we talking about ???

If we are going to talk about ethics we should all look at ourselves. I have never met a person yet who's ethics are the same as another's. So extrapolating that we are ALL unethical according to another :)

A guy finally has the cajones to say something good about a shop and others try to bring it down.

Without shops we would not have a hobby FACT :)

Steve Baines is the guy from Compton Rd, you know a guy who has been involved in the hobby for over 40yrs. How long have most of you been involved in the hobby.

Going further from that how much have some of you put back into the hobby ???

How many of you are involved in clubs which advance the hobby.

A good number of shops support the hobby, it is about time we were a little more considerate, and not so petty :)

Yeah I don't normally say so much on forums, I prefer face to face :) Easier

I attend club meetings !!! :)

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hi

i would like to know where you seen genetically modified fish in my store as you cant sell them in australa.

i would also like to know where you seen tattooed fish in my stores as we have NEVER had them.

yes we sell painted glass cats which are injected with color we buy them about 2 times a year and we put on the tanks injected glass cat will fade in time..

we have some in labrador now for 2 years and still alive just no color left.

grum sounds like a law suit. :ewink:;)

thanks to all the others that like my shops/..

kev :evil:

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Oh shit another law suit, go team up with Dean for a class action lol

Euan prehaps you might want to google before making comments on GM, if your thinking is right then we are all genetically modified africans... but its wrong.

Grum.

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Genetically Modified = Flowerhorns, Blood Parrots etc - Fish that do not occur naturally in the wild, however are an Aquarium bred hybrid... And yes, it is legal to sell these in Australia.

I have 2 X Blood Parrots... yes these are GM, but my choice - I think they are cute all the same... I have no intention of releasing them to the wild and they are cared for and are as happy as any of my other fish... Enough said...

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We are currently working on a mission statement as apposed to rules for this forum, to outline our beliefs and which all stores will comply with or else they will no longer be sponsers.

Its not complete yet but includes definate abuse / dieing / tattooing and generally poor business practices that directly affect the hobby. This may also include selling fish with a brand new tank.

I know its often hard to get the tone of the comments across on the net, and I make no applogies for my comments, there my points of view, and this is my forum.

Final.

Grum.

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Grum

I agree the idea of a forum is to make all info available good and bad. As far as no sponsors mentioned, true.

Id love to see a topic of the horrible genetic/physical manipulations occuring and yes naming and shaming the shops that sell some of these fish.

Ive noticed Ive also hi jacked the topicso im as guilty as the next

peter

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To Clear it Genetically modified is where they have added genes from another animal all together the main one in questions is where they spliced genes from jelly fish into that of a danio making them glow at night.

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Excuse me if I happened to study Biotechnology at University in my youth. :)

Genetically modified is any spp MODIFIED, which would include any spp bred for a purpose by man.

Genetically ENGINEERED would be any spp modified by various techniques i.e. gene splicing.

So no need for google :) Don't beleive everything YOU read on the net :)

Thus the Danios just mentioned are GE as well as GM, two terms that are not necessarily mutally exclusive.

Many would finds this comment unethical:

"I make no applogies for my comments, there my points of view, and this is my forum."

Smiley I think you pretty well covered some very important points. I think you covered exactly what was in my mind :)

How many people with a great deal of knowledge and experience choose not to participate on forums because they feel it is a complete slanging match ???

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Geez mate you sure know how to makes us small people feel great. And i hear there would be no tangs in qld if it wasn't for you. Glad to see we have another bloke that likes to keep his legends in his lunchbox so he can dream about them when he has his hours break.

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Many would finds this comment unethical:

"I make no applogies for my comments, there my points of view, and this is my forum."

Perhaps if the boards were a democracy, yes.

How many people with a great deal of knowledge and experience choose not to participate on forums because they feel it is a complete slanging match ???

.. or the resolve for those with experience to not get involved in legitimate and informative arguments that may prove them wrong.

As a Biotechnology graduate, you haven't voiced your personal opinions on whether you think Genetically engineered/modified, hybridised or in any way modified fish negatively affect the hobby, and whether they should be sold to the unsuspecting public, which is what this thread is about. Thanks for the clarification, but the real discussion lies in peoples opinions on the matter as a whole, not the technicalities behind the fish in question.

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Perhaps there is a further issue that goes beyond this thread?

This is a good call for opinion by the title...

Anyways... Freedom of choice. People have the right to buy these fish and due to that demand, business' stock these types of fish - some are considered show fish. You can't really boycot that freedom of choice when the Aquaria hobby is so broad... There is a never ending argument in animal rights, humanity and scientific intervention it extends far beyond fish keeping and in every scenario there is the same 2 sided argument - for and against... Die Hard Vegetarian vs Meat Eater - prime example...

The fish hobby extends to all sorts of tastes and likes... The statement on owning the forum etc probably could have been handled better to not make some feel possibly offended.

I personally don't agree with tattooed fish, injected dye, glow in the dark, any man handling causing the fish pain and distress etc... I have seen documentaries of how these fish are prepd - dipped in acid first... BUT, just cos that's not my bag doesn't mean that somebody else might not be that in touch with a fish's feelings that they see the pure 'wow' factor etc... My opinions are not able to change the way that that it is - there is a demand, so there is a market. So be it.

Anyways, my 5c...

Good to have something to read on the forum LOL, sometimes nobody really says alot except for sale...

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Many would finds this comment unethical:

"I make no applogies for my comments, there my points of view, and this is my forum."

Whats unethical about telling the truth, I cant see a problem with it, I think this place is more of a democracy than any other forum around, definately in QLD.

People get offended by my comments often because they have alterier motives to there posts, I have none, I have no commercial or financial interests in the hobby. And this site doesnt make me money, its costs me money and time.

On the subject of GM please keep to common english, im sure we can all astound each other with our big words and exact termonology. But the truth is before about 1980 Genetic Modified didnt mean a whole lot to most people. And breeding fish was never used along side this term.

Grum.

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We have had Genetically Engineered or Modified fish here in Australia since the late 70's or early 80's.

I don't care what you want to class them as but they are manipulated by man and have been released into our waterways for at least 25 years for anglers to catch and eat.

These fish all carry 3 chromosomes and not the standard 2 chromosomes that all normal fish carry.

In normal circumstances the egg carries 2 chromosomes and the milt carries 1 chromosomes.

Once fertilization takes place there is 3 chromosomes present and naturally the egg then boots one out to only leave the 2 chromosomes required.

Manipulation of these fertilized eggs with heat and pressure locks in that third chromosome therefore creating a fertilized egg that once hatched and raised to adulthood the fish is sterile.

Due to the fact these fish to not grow reproductive organs the energy required for that is then transferred into the growing stage and produces very large fish in a much shorter time frame.

The original stock of the Triploid fish were released into Purrumbete Dam and Lake Bullen Merri in Victoria and were engineered at the Snobs Creek Trout Hatchery near Eildon.

We also have a variety of hybrid natives that the government has deliberately created like murray cod x trout cod.These are now in full scale production for table fish.

On the other side we have programs like the Tilapia eradication program where fish are genetically modified and released back into the wild in the long term hope of wiping out these types of pest species once and for all and if at the least the program keeps the numbers low enough to be of little harm to the environment and other native fish species as possible.

Research has shown that GM or GE fish do have a place in the world but like everything how far do we go.

I believe the days of introducing a new pest species into the wild to eradicate another pest species should be over as the GM or GE technology has advanced far enough now to be used as a weapon against these pests by using their own species as the weapon.

As for the aquarium hobby I believe the use of GM,GE,tattooing and dying should be outlawed world wide and at the very minimum totally outlawed here in Australia.

If any of you were to shave your dog or cat and inject a die into its blood stream or tattoo say you name and address on the dog you would go to jail so I cannot understand why the government has not amended the laws to include all aquatic animals.

Anyway its an interesting thread and I could type for a year on fish and aquaculture industry practices both ethical and unethical but i have work to do now,,,lol

Lance

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With my grade 7 education,and all i've learned along the way,it goes like this with me, you dont mess with natural things genetically,be it fish dogs any animals or humans.I have seen a few local fish shops selling colour dyed fish.I dont believe this is right, but understand we are all different,and are all creatively looking for something different out of everything we do.My girlfriend loves these fish when she saw them in lfs.I explained to her how them pink and blue coloures occurerd in these fish,she couldnt believe it.I think thats how the majority of us must think.Then again i'm covered with tattoes,so thats how i see others points they make.we always looking for something different.From what i understand some fish seem hard to get hold of so doesnt common sense say lets keep our fishs bloodlines and appearences the way they should be for the future of our hobby.This is real interesting thread seeing peoples views on this.

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Yea i guess my point may have been thrown off scew alittle, Im not against GM as a priciple or technology, and agree that in cases it has its merit, like trying to get rid of pests, and stop mosquitoes from being able to carry deadly deseases.

But to modify something purerly for the assument of man is just plan wrong. In any sence be it in a lab or just cross breeding the hell out of something to get the type of deformaties/apperance that human's desire.

This doesnt include selective breeding in the case of EB jack dempseys, your trying to bring out a trait that is natural. same with albino.

This is only my opinion though......

Grum.

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Personally I find it a bit hypocritical to lampoon any shop for selling any fish.....

Sure.....I wouldn't buy dyed or GM fish.....I wouldn't even buy a Gold Ram or a long finned danio.

However "cruel" it maybe for a dyed fish.....there is thousands of other "normal" fish who die along the way from Asian breeder to someone's tank.

A Good percentage of fish sold wont live more than a couple of weeks.....If we are realistic the whole concept of taking fish from the wild and keeping them in tanks is "cruel"

Let's Be Real.....This is a cruel hobby.....individuals may not be...but the Industry is whether we like it or not.... ;)

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this is a bit of topic but it is a cruel hobby and at the same time it isn't as for some fish are near extintion in the wild there for it is needed to keep these fish in captivity . As for dyed and tattooed fish imo it is wrong its the sort of thing that give's the hobby a bad name and should be banned.

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Grum wrote

" This may also include selling fish with a brand new tank. "

well Grum, mate i dont think there will be many sponsors of the forum if you are going to bring in this rule, as most lfs will sell fish with a brand new tank. :egrin:

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I mean on the same day, and unethically. There is a big difference between explaining the cycle process to the customer, how to go about setting up a tank and then informing them it would be best for the fish to leave it for a week.

I think you will find most people once they get over the excitment and understand that process will go for that option, And I have been into a few stores (I wont mention them as ive had my weekly allowance of threats) where they have sold a brand new tank and filter, piled up $100 worth of chemicals and system starters and then taken the customer shopping to overstock there tank.

When half the fish die they make excuses test the water, sell more chemicals, tell them to come back in a week, when they come back if the water is ok/moderate they resell them the dead fish and a heap more chemicals.

Probably 3 times the sales then if they had been informed and encouraged to do the right thing. And it puts ALOT of people off the hobby.

Grum.

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There are still a few shops that I know will not sell fish on the same day as the tank

Myself being one of them

Once I explain the cycle and why its a bad idea to wait then the vast majority are fine and generally happy I have saved them money

This customer will also remember and come back more often knowing I am not trying to rip them off

The hobby is cruel in ways but I think we can help by not buying fish that have been dyed or that have tattoo's

I wont sell them and that wont change

Brad

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Hey Grum,

That sort of practice happens in alot of business' preying on the uninformed and misguided - a dodgy mechanic for example... go in with a loose lead and you end up getting charged for a cracked head replacement etc...

I know that you have no malice with the message you are trying to put across, but you cannot suggest how a business should practice - it is not your business. Good practices are awarded with praise and feedback such as the initial purpose of this thread. Just because a fish shop sells fish with a tank or dyed fish - does that reduce their service? Quality of all other stock? There is no obligation for you to buy this stock - why? Your choice!

Buying fish with your new tank is an interesting point - are you considering ALL facets of fish keeping in making that statement? What about old mate who goes to the fish shop to buy a Siamese Fighter in a bowl with some coloured rocks - you really think they are going to be concerned about the ammonia cycle? Or the young kid who wants a pet fish in a 1ft tank - mum and dad have no idea, the sign says all included $49 (or whatever) bargain! All done and dusted in the one transaction...

Again it comes down to demand - some people are far less worldy than you when it comes to fish keeping and some don't even really want to know about all the water levels, extra expenses in chems etc - ignorance is bliss or the willingness to risk it / wing it. We can try and educate these people, but if they aren't interested - that is their call. Due to that fact, business' still supply to demand and if people want a fish tank with a fish that they can go home and put together right now without the need for further visits - that is their choice - the shop in that customers eyes in providing a top service.

You can't expect an Aquarium stockist business to abide by your definition of ethics - in some cases, how do they make the weekly cut? By relying on ALL avenues of fish keeping and selling to the demand of the customers - that in turn creates profit which in turn keeps the business above water.

An 'ethical' fish shop with no GE, GM, fish sold on the day with tanks, etc etc is probably not going to do as well as one that does cater for ALL tastes - they are not defining a skillset or pre req in order for you as the customer to have fish, they are giving you choice. In buying your fish on the day, in the eyes of the business that is impulse, satisfying demand, a sale.... Look at this from both sides of the fence and not just how you feel. You aren't running your own Aquarium store from what I can tell - but if you did, how would you take it with constant spew over on a related topic forum on how you run your business based on someones opinion? Whilst probably not stocking tattooed fish as per the general consensus - would you do whatever else to make those extra bucks as to keep your business viable? Or would you conform to the opinions of those on the forum, reducing your potential audience and potentially creating a decline on feet in the door?

I do feel for old mate from the fish store that seems to have comments deleted and squashed - I shop there, it is local and it is a great store! Friendly staff and usually a bargain on the common cichlid stock. You cannot please everyone and everyone has a seperate opinion.

You could reduce your 'weekly threats' by being a bit more understanding and empathetic... Business' are closing at a rapid rate due to economic change. If my local fish shop was to stay afloat by selling goldfish with the tank on the day, or stock the odd dyed fish - so be it (I would'nt buy them of course, but wouldn't stop me from going back to that shop)... At the end of the day, I feed goldfish to my Oscars, they don't even get a tank - so go figure? Is that unethcial too?

This is a non stop argument overall. Peoples opinions vs Peoples opinions. It is unethical to you, that is your opinion - to Joe Blow down the road that may want a retarded fish because it is unique and different or a fishtank today with fish - that is his opinion, his money, his choice. Different levels of knowledge, different levels of passion and different levels of ignorance is where the break down occurs.

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I can see your arguement and you have some good points, However I dont think its a good business practice to take advantage of any customer. In the case of making problems for the customer and then selling them solutions is not ethical. You could not sell a person a car, tell them it was ok to use with desiel instead of unleaded, and then charge them for a rebuild of the engine after it shits itself.

And I feel that alot of new people to the hobby dont relise what is happening (and im not saying that any particular store does this). They assume that they did something wrong, or the fish just "died". Ive even heard a staff member say to a customer that the fish was old and probably close to his time lol.

This thread wasnt intended to alienate any store or business, some have stuck there heads up.

I also disagree that its good for business to do these type of things, ok a goldfish and a tank is alittle different, they are hardy and most good stores ive seen that do this include some sort of printed information on care and keeping the fish, I dont think this should stop and its a great way to get kids interested.

However if your whole business model is to get every last dollar out of there wallet untill they are sick of the hobby and feel like failures and give up, then its wrong. This is from personal experience aswell, when i first started out (probably about 17), I must have spent over 2k on a 3 foot tank (which had frontosa in it), before i thought hang on this is bullshit and tried to find out more.

Only to find out I had basically been ripped off, told frontosa wouldnt grow and would be perfect in a 3 foot tank. Thankfully the owner of the store (who I delt with) is no longer in business.

I believe an honest business model that cares for the customer is a much better way of doing it, after all that original 2k wasted was nothing compared to what i have spent since that time, and in reality I have given back alot of fry to stores for good prices from my breeding.

In the long run a customer for life is better than a customer for 2 months, word of mouth is pretty powerful and a solid and ongoing customer base will support or save a business in the tuff times.

Grum.

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