Benno22 Posted March 14, 2012 Report Share Posted March 14, 2012 Hi everyone, If I choose to I am able to get a white saum female and gold saum male. These fish are a breeding pair but I just want to know everyones opinions on this. If I ever decide to move the fish on will they be worthless due to the two different species of the one pair? And will the fry be suitable to sell? Any help will be appreciated. Cheers, Ben. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daydream Posted March 14, 2012 Report Share Posted March 14, 2012 To me the fish as inderviduals are of saleable standard asfor the fry they are worthless except for feeders as i believe in the purest of bloodlines should only be sold as breeders Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yodapwnsasmurf Posted March 14, 2012 Report Share Posted March 14, 2012 Hmm, I am just thinking, will the fry be orangish-light yellow saums, or will the be a 50-50 mix of whites and golds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MRNOS Posted March 14, 2012 Report Share Posted March 14, 2012 From experience they come out orange, but with different body shape-whites are more bulky/round. I say keep whites with whites, golds with golds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pk333 Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 Both Gold saums and Silver saums available in Australia are the same species, Andinoacara aequinoctalis. They are the same species, just different colour morphs. There are no true Green terrors or Rivulatus in Australia. I don't care what they are labled in the LFS, they are mislabled. I'm not going to speculate what some people may have had smuggle in to the country and keep in their tanks. If you really want to find out more you can email Alf Stalsberg or checkout his website, Welcome to ALF's Home Page . He's quite approachable and willing to help any hobbiests, alf@cichlid-power.com Alf is the worlds foremost authority on the South American acara species, and has the Andinoacara stalsbergi nammed after him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MRNOS Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 I've contacted a few guys in the states and according to them the common White Saum is classed as Andinoacara Sp. Silver Saum( although Stalsberg also refers to them as ,Andinoacara rivulatus) gold saums Andinoacara sp. "Gold Saum", and the "True Green Terror" as Andinoacara stalsbergi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pk333 Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 Man you're going to make me go look for it now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pk333 Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 Cut and paste; Yes the DNA test include all three species. There IS not more than three species as far as we know today. And I know you guys is confused since you are mixing the fish. First of all, the Goldsaum Andinoacara aequinoctalis, is found with different color on the seam at the caudal. These colors goes from white, white with a little yellow tint, darker yellow over to Orange/Red. I have seen in different biotopes where I've been collecting the Andinocara (Goldsaum) aequinoctalis, different colors on the fish and pair with fry where the male had orange seam and female white seam. Don't hang yourself to much in the color, look at the fish. In Europe we have (comes from the German) called the fish Goldsaum, no matter what the fish color is on the seam at the caudal fin. I think you should do the same, so there will not be any confusion. Cichlid-Forum :: View topic - Green terrors (Rivulatus) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MRNOS Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 Man you're going to make me go look for it now. It's all on Alf's site and his cd, bought the English version a few months back, lots of good info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benno22 Posted March 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 Thanks for all the info! Really appreciated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MRNOS Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 Also cut and paste I also apologize for the thread hijack, but mstama called his fish rivulatus, which tends to set off these things, especially if there is no photo! Okay, I was wrong about a couple of things, as a result of my poor memory. Due to this discussion, I went back to the discussion on CRC, and then to Alf Stalsberg's site: GENUS. While he has not yet updated with Andinoacara and still has stalsbergi listed as "Silbersaum", there is a detailed narrative explaining the errors of identification in the past, which he personally straightened out by going to Peru and Ecuador to collect fish. I would really love the opportunity to meet Mr. Stalsberg, as his efforts showed a dedication to clearing up this confusion, and a logical application of data that is evident if one reads it carefully. No skimming!!! First, I was mistaken about Ronny_M's fish. It is a White Seam, an apparent recessive genetic variant of the Gold Saum. This is evident by the width of the border, which is the same as a Gold Saum. It also has the scale coloration of the Gold Saum, of course, which says that it cannot be stalsbergi. Until I went back and looked more carefully at stalsberg's photo he calls rivulatus, I did not realize that these actually are two diffent fish. In the discussion on CRC, one participant mentioned seeing 25% white seam individuals in a pond of feral Gold Saum fish in Hawaii. That number is what identifies it to me as a recessive gene, and Ronny_M's photos (the first I've seen of this form) suggest that it is not a hybrid, but a variant/population of Gold Saum. However, it is under no circumstances Andinoacara stalsbergi. If you look at Stalsberg's site, you will find that the Ecuadoran fish from the Rio Esmerelda, which KULLANDER identified as rivulatus, has a narrow edge that resembles the recently described Peruvian fish; however, it has the scale color pattern of the Gold Saum, so it is obviously a different species from either Gold Saum (by the fin edges) or the Silbersaum/stalsbergi (by the scale coloration and geographical distribution). A look at a topographical map also shows that it is geologically isolated from the others by a small range of mountains. Stalsberg mentions this in his narrative, and most seem to have overlooked that fact. I know I did the first time. I read the recent description of stalsbergi, and the authors seemed to be unaware of the fish that Stalsberg says Kullander identified as the real rivulatus. In fact, they describe the Red edging of the Gold Saum as one of the characters of rivulatus that makes it possible to distinguish that species from stalsbergi. They also point to the different scale patterns, which fortunately is a more dependable means of distinguishing between stalsbergi and the other two. My conclusions are as follows: the describers of stalsbergi did not adequately research the other forms in the group prior to assigning relationships. They misread references that placed rivulatus in Ecuador as meaning the Gold Saum species, and were even unaware that there are populations of that species that also have white fin edges, not to mention the existence of the Esmerelda fish as a distinct species. Despite all that, the description is still good, and the original "Green Terror" of the American hobby is this newly described species. Hobbyists have been placing way too much importance on the color of the "seams", and ignoring the scale pattern, which is a far more important characteristic. Patterns are always more stable than colors, as evidenced by the fact that Gold Saum can throw recessive White Seams. The fish that Stalsberg calls the real rivulatus based on identification done by Kullander PROBABLY HAS NOT ENTERED THE AMERICAN HOBBY, SFAIK. The two species currently available are Gold Saum and stalsbergi, aka Green Terror. The region at Esmerelda, Ecuador, has not been heavily collected by commercial or even private individuals, the only one I'm aware of being - Alf Stalsberg. Since he had the sense to send preserved specimens to Kullander for ID, I tend to trust his Judgement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pk333 Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 (edited) So the white and orange rivulatus you are breeding, what are their scale patterns? Grey centre with a green edge? or Green centre with a grey edge? I have yet to see any Andinoacara in Australia with scales that have a green centre edged in grey. Edited March 16, 2012 by pk333 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MRNOS Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 Going by his site and the above description, the 3 species I listed above are correct. However, some confusion to clear up. What is listed/described on Alf's site is, silver Saum/gold Saum is the same species, whites being a Recessive gene, the most common found in LFS, the Rivulatus are similar to the saums, similar scale pattern/colour(gold/green outline scale pattern), BUT have a much thinner white edge( common white saums have a white edge 2-3 times thicker), then there's the True Green Terror, thin white edge like the Rivulatus, but scale pattern/colour is different, not an outlined type pattern, the middle of the scale has the colour. I'll post some pics in the morning, I believe going by Alf's description I own, the white/gold saums and a female Rivulatus, my female riv has the thinner white edge, similar-but not exactly the same- scale pattern/colour as the common white edge saums Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MRNOS Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 And sorry but my breeding orange/reds should be listed as saums not Rivulatus, my mistake on that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pk333 Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 Photos would be very good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tuffy_rana Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 there are no rivulatus in australia period. they are even rare in the states for the most part. whether they are the same genus or not matters little as there are distinct colour morphs. it would be like saying "all 6 bar frontosa are the same fish". whilst technically correct there still needs to be segregation re colour morphs or collection points JMHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tuffy_rana Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 rivulatus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MRNOS Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 OK some pics Some ****py iphone pics so please excuse the quality White Saum Male White Saum Female-sorry best pic I could get Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MRNOS Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 Gold Saum My OTHER girl, 100% Rivulatus? Probably not, I doubt theres many americans that arent watered down slightly She has the thin white edge, thicker face markings, slightly different scale colour/pattern, different body shape, the above pictured white saum female is the same size, around 15-16cms, and there are noticeable differences. So I dont think shes 100% but something else got into her gene-pool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MRNOS Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 The 3 types shown on Alf's site Andinoacara Norsk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MRNOS Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 And the True Green Terror Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liljohn_83 Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 DAM that apears to be a real gt ? yours Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MRNOS Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 I WISH! No one a mate in canada owns Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenterra Posted March 16, 2012 Report Share Posted March 16, 2012 As stated, the gold saum and white saum we have here in Australia are the very same species. It is just a colour variation. I knew they had been re-described recently to Andinoacara "sp" gold saum with further intention to end up as Andinoacara aequinotalis but was unaware that that change had already happened. Either way, what we have here is the saum with both white edge and gold edge being the very same fish. It was to be expected. Aquarist around the world have always noted mixed colour spawns, even with wild caught stock. They have even been found in the wild with mixed colour spawns. They often start out white and end up red/orange. This guy was a white edge with no sign of red at all until around 6" mark and look how he turned out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
