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Brengun

Making L's almost worthless.

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Well Dave it is in the catfish topic so you will have to start up another thread in the Yanks area...Just joking mate. It has the same relevance with nearly all other fish too as it pertains to the same issues. Definitely agree with you.

I recon we could have the same thread in all the sections

not a catfish person but change the word L for fish and

still most of what's been said is true

It's a shame for everyone who wants to

keep everything real V's people who

just want to try make some $$$

FJ

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In europe and us you have more variety (more species) to play with, so everyone isn't breeding the 5 or so 'common' L's as they are here.

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hmm i dunno about this! :)

Sorry can not help myself when there is a good topic.

This thread has shown two sides with L-Numbers getting cheaper and cheaper. Some want it and some do not.

But you can not have your cake and eat it too.

If you would like L-Numbers to hold their value that is fine so that when you breed your fish they get sold dearer. But do not turn around and buy fish because they are cheap, good value or a bargain you have to be good to your beliefs and buy dearer fish of the same fish type as that is also how the fish hold their value....

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If prices are cheaper than overseas it opens a possible market. How cool would that be that the fish were cheap enough and had the quality that Australia actually got a name for good fish being exported. Mind you I have no knowledge on if this is even possible to do.

My understanding is that to legally be able to export an "exotic" species, it must also be an allowable import. Kinda sucks. Kills off the chance for a whole new export industry. If only we had access to sell in other markets, I'm sure we would have a much larger production industry locally.

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This is a good topic and I'm glad it's open again (don't close it just cause you can)

But don't you think a lot of what's been said applies to all fish not just L's

or is it too late for some fish ?

FJ

It certainly applys to frontosa.

look what happened to the price of local bred ones when the wild caught imports starting coming in.

Many L numbers are incredibly cheap in asia, but then most their fish are.

I have seen what would be $2000 L's in Oz being kept with rather large turtles in thailand.

and ya

they already had some fresh chunks out of fins....

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perhaps the reason why some catties etc are so cheap overseas is the same reason why they are not on the import list here....perhaps its a matter of them being a destructive pest and out competing other fish ???,i dont always agree with certain lists ..but i think they are there for they greater good.we have soooo many examples of this,perhaps ppl should learn to love what we already have on offer in this country instead of winging about what they would like and see the bigger picture .just my 2c

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for those truely in it for the love of it, i will buy you a full kg of hikari algae wafers in return for every full spawn u grow out to 3cm.

Cool, just have spawn coming through of common bn's sounds like a good deal...lol

Thought I would not go back to BN's but its not bad to go back to your roots and remember the beginning and the basics.

People may not be particularly keen on them but they are a great stepping stone if you want to travel the path and work your way up.

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wow what an interesting thread truly it was a fascinating read.

brengun i agree with but at the same time techden and rayray i agree with you. its a supply and demand thing in my eyes for these so called common l's there is an abundance of them flooding the market and not enough of a demand for us to continue selling them for $50 each. i personally bought my fish l's l202's at almost 12months of age for $15 each this is a trend that is occurring in every aspect of "retail" life, do i wish i could sell my soon to come l's for 50 bucks a pop bloody oath i do but hey im not in it for the coin that's an added bonus.

at the end of the day no one can control the price of these amazing creatures that we have fallen in love with im gonna put a price on my fish that i think is a reasonable request, ive spent a great deal of time and money making sure i have different bloodlines, the correct equipment and knowledge to bring the beauty of an l number to someone elses aquarium.

as for cross breeds this is a natural occurance in all parts of nature, look at the polar bear for instance, there a cases of the polar bear cross breeding with the grizzly bear in Canada. some of you might remember this being shown on 60minutes about a year ago. rats have been doing this also for years now as have birds today i saw a bird in fernvale that looked just like a crow but was singing like a magpie.

i am definitely not a breeder like techden or brengun but at the end of the day don't we all do it because we are intrigued by these creatures? i know im trying to do so for that exact reason its only human to be inquisitive.

at the end of the day it sucks that we wont be able to off load my fry for the prices we used to be able too but hey as long as my little fishes keep me intrigued i'll keep on going with them and if i can get a little bit of money for them in the mean time well so be it.

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I respect the other breeders and do try to do a search on their previous pricings when I have a few fish for sale so I don't undercut them.

I seem to be in the minority I'm afraid.

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You're right Brenda

I always check previous pricings first but never drop the price too low

Although fish do go in cycles... I don't know about L's but loads of tangs have had their cycles

Melanogenys went for $60ea when they first came in, 1000's were bred and sold until people couldn't move them on anymore

They dropped down to $15ea

Nobody wanted to bother breeding them for the such little price they were getting in return so they moved onto other fish and they died out

Over the years nobody really kept them going and now that they're back on the market with heaps available, they're fetching their original price after 10+ years

Eventually it'll happen again, price will drop so breeders can get rid of them and so on in a CYCLE...

However, there is another issue which I'm not sure it's more related to L's or not but with Tangs there are loads of variants... same species have different colours but people don't understand some are much harder to breed than other variants. The price comes down on one variant so then people expect to pay the same for all species.

When the price goes down it's not worth paying the thousands (yes I mean thousands for certain colonies so they can come in via other means) to acquire certain species and breed them when the return is so little. Factoring losses and time as well! Then in the future people miss out on newer variants and species all together.

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They will become worthless and no-one will keep them... the species then will die out.

This is clearly a false assertion. Look at Bristlenose - produced in such bulk quantities as to be almost completely worthless, yet remains as one of the most popular, easy-to-sell, commonly kept fish.

There's no legitimate reason for price fixing. Breeders are of course entitled to sell their fish at a price that is fair to themselves, that makes the hassle and cost of breeding them in the first place worthwhile. That price will vary from breeder to breeder. Beyond that, you can't arbitrarily determine that some prices are "too cheap", based on some imaginary inherent dollar worth of each specimen. That's restricting not only the rights of the breeders to sell their own fish however they like, but also the rights of buyers who should not be expected to pay a huge mark-up on a fish just by virtue of it being an L-number.

The complaint that cheaper fish means more inexperienced breeders and the potential for crossbreeding is fair enough, but keeping prices high for everyone so that a naive few can't create crossbreeds is not the way to go.

Edited by Barmy

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bristlenose are always in demand as they are algae eaters suitable for community tanks.

ya standard common is not collectable

I just sold all the bristlenose in my fishroom

for basically nothing.

I cannot be bothered cleaning filters on tanks with hundreds of them in them anymore, for no reward.

if this was the attitude of breeders towards any fish that wasnt as useful to beginers as the b/n is, then yes its easy to see it vanishing from the hobby after a few years.

good old cycles.

A question for you all,

Where are all the pied convicts?

I remember when they were 50cents each.

Now you couldnt buy one for $1000

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Pricing is a funny thing as it is more a personal belief than anything. As Bren mentions above that out of respect to other breeders she chooses to search prices and keep it at that price. That is her choice and so long as she is happy with then cool.

My personal thought is so long as I can cover my costs of the fish, food, equipment and electricity and a little in front to re invest in more or different types of fish and additional equipment than I am happy. I respect other breeders for what they do but disagree on pricing and do not choose to research other peoples prices or follow the leader.

It is funny how the people selling the fish cheap get PM's and what not, saying you are selling them too cheap yet the people selling them cheap do not send PM's saying you are selling them too dear. It might upset the apple cart with other breeders but I can tell you the buyers are happy.

Quality - well compare the two. Both groups seem to feed their fish on similar high quality food. Fish in both cases a lot of the time come from the same sellers. The price reflects quality seems to be a misconception, sometimes it is the case but not always.

I know some of the breeders selling them cheaper will have over 20 of the same sort of L-Number so when buying 5 it will generally be 5 from multiple blood lines rather than 5 of the same bloodline.

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wow...all this pricing and L talk got me well kind of showing some interest in the "dark side"...now I am into it for the fish firstly....if you get a coin back from enjoying your hobby its always a bonus...Im not here for the employment :)..and anyways..I start snooping around for some "L's" I actually might like :P...and yep found a few...L025(sexy chunky little sucka) and I love a big cool fish and so the L155 or Adonis pleco really got me half chubbed...little futuristic machine looking things!...so then I start looking around for availability,PRICES,conditions,PRICES,requirements,PRICES...damn!!!...just thought what better place to share than on a thread talking about L numbers selling for crumbs and destroying strains etc....WOW...I am looking at fish firstly that ask for close to if not more $1000 a juvenile(thats if you can even find them)....seems to me some of these fish NEED to be bred more...you always have common varieties and fish that are the bread and butter...but there are ALOT of L numbers that are RARE and VERY expensive...seems my taste in them is very hard to please with an everyday income....so overbred and cheap is definitely not the case with quite a few of these guys...sometimes you need the opposite approach for the survivability of a species...cheaper means more people breed them...means more fish become available....those vampire and zebra guys...damn if they are cheap...Im in the wrong occupation...seems these guys are the some of the most expensive species of fish going...I reckon I would put in alot more work culling and individually selecting each fry with ranchu as far as breeding goes...and yet these guys would sell for at best a tenth of the price...and yet I dont see too many quality ranchu breeders around....its an odd little fishy world...each to their own as they say....damn L numbers :)

where are those adonis guys at? :)...might chuck 1 in the spare 2 footer if I get him on the cheap:)

Edited by goldenswimmers

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The Adonis guys are wrangling their fish as they will grow over a meter in length. There would be very few around and the thing is trying to get information on them would be limited - limited on knowledge and limited in actual truth.

I personally do not know anyone that I would consider a expert or even close in Australia and I am far far far from an expert on L-Numbers and consider myself a big L Plate for learner and will continue happily learning. So little is known and yet there is so much needed to know. There is a reason why I bang on about read some good books - do your homework - talk to people. Do not just rely on one persons information, compare a few and try a few. The fish will tell you what is right in the end - with the fins up and active. This is what I mean about fins up telling you they are happy.

DSCF2194.JPG

Same with feeding - if you want to try something new put a couple of alternatives in there because if there is nothing else they will eat it. Will carnivores eat wood chip - yep, will it be any good for them well probably not. I think just about everyone has seen dogs eat grass but does not mean you should feed them a diet of it.

Keep an eye on the protein content and if they are in a community tank and particularly Discus and you feed your discus a lot of meaty type products like beef hart and worms be extra careful not to overfeed as what goes to the floor of the tank is a feed for someone else then all of sudden its the fish died bloated.

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Ah classic tech den being modest, the guys a genius and is pretty much the jesus of the L# world :)

But I do 110% agree with brengun, I stopped breeding a few different things cause one member kept undercutting everyone :(

I suppose your best option is to settle on a species/genus of fish and concentrate on having the awesomest quality fish of that kind :D

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Ohhh Michael you make me feel all warm n fuzzy, but really I am a hobbyist that has enthusiasm where I live it, breathe it and love it. It remains a big challenge to me and continues to surprise me each day. So much to learn so much to discover, I will be old n grey n wrinkly before I would be close to genius, might be something to aspire to but the chances of reaching it would be slim and the odds are against it.

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If something is not selling at a price because the lfs is selling cheaper than what you are selling for what are you suppose to do? you have to drop the price or keep them. Maybe we need to stop selling to the lfs for ridiculous prices that might help hobbyists out.

When I first started selling l397 (before everyone except one other person)I remember people undercutting me with L397 prices. The price dropped by more than 50% but that was OK then I guess but it seems to be not OK now.

Such a confusing issue damned if you do and damned if you don't.

LOL my fish aren't selling at either cheap or expensive prices(maybe people think they have cooties :)) and they are a beautiful variant of the L134. I still have some available($130 each neg shhhhhh) and they are nearly as big as my adults. But wait theirs more with every bulk purchase you will receive a set of steak knives.

Maybe someone wants to sell my fish for me???

It is a hobby not an income

A beautiful fish regardless what you pay

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ah classic tech den being modest, the guys a genius and is pretty much the jesus of the l# world :)

but i do 110% agree with brengun, i stopped breeding a few different things cause one member kept undercutting everyone :(

i suppose your best option is to settle on a species/genus of fish and concentrate on having the awesomest quality fish of that kind :D

who kept undercutting everyone????

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Some really interesting replies on this thread and its good to delve into what others think.

Question: How does one tell if the market is saturated with a particular L and the price needs to drop?

Could it be that a lot of people just aren't as into L's as I am and they won't pay above a certain level of price now matter how good or rare they are?

Reality check, I do need to remember there are other fish besides L's sometimes lol.

Perhaps people in the local area just aren't falling all over themselves to buy any fish atm even if they are L's?

One fish shop I spoke to seemed to agree but another in a different area seemed to think there was no slow down in buying.

How far does one drop the more common sorts of L price in comparison to other fish species?

Frontosa prices? Fancy goldfish prices? Discus prices? Guppy prices?

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