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Hello all,

Due to rising concernes coupled with the rise in cross breeding these two varients of L numbers and there stock being miss labled. This forum will now take a stand on this matter and if any memebr is found miss labeling these cross breeds then they can find themselves having to refund the buyer and also having a suspension on there accounts.

To give some a bit of back ground on these variants yes there is documentaion of these cross breeding in wild however if these fish are kept in the same breeding tanks these will interbreed and therefore the prodginy will not be true (if first/second or third gen FME). These have been cross breed for some years by un scroupulous breeders who use the cross breeding to obtain larger and more consistant batches of fry (to gain more money from the 333).

What to do if you do have stock of these or are unsure of liniage, all sales of suspected L333 x L066 must be written up as this to save any confusion for the buyer and more importantly mis representation of stock being sold. As far as I am aware I have "heard" on the grape vine that this "new" cross will be given a AQualog reference number in either the next release or the following.

I thank you all for your understanding of this forums stance on miss labled and also this type of breeding practices.

Regards

John

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I would strongly recomend everyone who is into L numbers to research research research before they buy and even if you have to take a copy of L number aqualog with you to verify fish than it is worth your time and dollers.. However in stating this I have been caught out in the past like les and I have turned them into plant food as to stop these type of L numbers growing in the market place.

On another note les if these where purchaced of this forum plese PM our Forum Mods ( Liljohn, Daydream, FIIK, Relle) and start a dispute.

Cheers

John

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One issue that may have been missed here is that when you purchase a fish you purchase it in good faith. Apart of that "good faith" is that the fish that you have purchased should you choose to breed it - it will breed true ie if you buy a L333 and breed it you will get L333 fry same with the L066.

As John mentions the above the point of the cross of L333 and L066 and it being categorised in a L-Number that can only be done where it breeds true. Unfortunately although it would seem that they are the same fish being a cross here in Australia and it is unknown that it will in fact breed true, I am unaware of any confirmation of the crosses breeding true at this stage. It is disappointing when you purchase something only to take the time to breed it and find out that it is not true, pure and has a complex gene pool that would be extremely difficult to correct the line to breed true.

As mentioned above please do your homework when purchasing so that you are aware what to look for and if you have any difficulties in obtaining this information please contact me and I will help direct you to where you will be able to find the information until we are able to provide the information here for our valued members.

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It may be worth it for L333 and L066 breeders to advise fry buyers that they can and will crossbreed if allowed to mature as adults in the same tank.

I keep records of my buyers and if they've bought one sort of mine I will make sure if they buy the other, they are advised to keep them in separate tanks. :)

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there are too many cowboys out there, all species of breeders should be given their own designated breeding tank, then there would be no problems.

dont mix it dont risk it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Anyone that buys juvy L066 and L333 would find putting them in the same tank would just make it too hard to tell who is who as they change though their growing cycle.

I think it is the end of having them for sale and where it says photo's in the ad and putting Google it or just No. People will just not be interested.

Also think that people are not only going to ask for pics of the fish but also the parents.

Personally and as a Member I think it is a good idea to have photos of fish that are worth more than a couple of bucks.

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I really dont understand why people dont put up pictures for fish they are tring to sell.I think its just plain laziness.A photo says 1000 words.And from my experience a good photo sells a fish so much quicker.I can understand somewhat for catfish as they do hide alot.

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I really dont understand why people dont put up pictures for fish they are tring to sell.I think its just plain laziness.A photo says 1000 words.And from my experience a good photo sells a fish so much quicker.I can understand somewhat for catfish as they do hide alot.

i agree to some extent, and yes if your paying top $$$$ you would want pics, but i also find unless your good at taking pics it can have the oppisite result, a bad pic can and does lose sales, and also i find a lot of fish change as they grow, so in some cases a pic of the parents would be better, or needed also,

and its getting even harder now that some sellers won't let you at their place, so pics in that case would be a must,

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:( now I am even more confused than I was to start with . I am a newbie L keeper not breeding just loving all the colours and strains . I have 333's in a tank of their own and then I also have a tank with the 066's seperate . My question I guess is as a newbie should I be getting the numbers confirmed for my own peace of mind and just in case I am ever lucky enough that they do breed so I will know that the L I am selling is numbered correctly ?? Thanks Linda

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There is no harm in getting them ID'ed for your own piece of mind. If you would like to get them ID'ed just keep in mind two things. The person giving the information and their knowledge to give a good effective ID. It is generally a good idea to get more than one opinion and the other is the size. When they start off both look identical so it is difficult in the early stages and as they get older their patters start to resemble their species. The older they are the better they are to identify.

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Thats fine Les, I know you are passionate about your fishes and the trouble is that you think about 3 times faster than me at times. I have to work hard to come up with decent explanations. lol.

I know the difference just by looking at the fish in real life but its difficult to explain what I am looking for between L333 and L066 but I'll have a bash.

The L333 has a less deep fork in the tail. The distance from the base of the top of the tail to the back of where the dorsal fin ends seems much shorter and stockier when compared to the L066.

The L066 seems to have a good length between the base of the tail and the back of the dorsal fin, making them look longer and more slender.

The fork in the tail also seems quite deep in the L066 with a real V in it and usually good long tail filaments (tips) as well.

Unfortunately I don't think there is a nice rule of counting the dorsal rays or anything to tell the difference as I think they are both the same.

I look at the pics on planet catfish for a bit of a guide. Go on the link and you can click each photo to display bigger.

For those not familiar with loading links, hold down the control button and click on the link at the same time. It will open in another box for you so you don't lose this thread.

Hypancistrus sp. (L333) • Loricariidae • Cat-eLog • PlanetCatfish

Hypancistrus sp. (L066) • Loricariidae • Cat-eLog • PlanetCatfish

I don't go so much on the actual scribble markings as those can vary within species quite a lot at times.

You only have to look at all the strange patterns on the L134's to really do your head in and I am reasonably sure they won't crossbreed as L134 are a peckoltia and not a hypancistrus.

Taking really good photos can be really hard as some fish just drop all their fins, fade off in stress and look absolute rubbish at times but a bit of an attempt at photos in a for sale thread isn't just too bad. Its better than look at google at least lol.

The best I can recommend to buyers is if the photos weren't that great, at least bring a shallow container during pickup and put the fish in for closer inspection before you hand over the payment. If your happy the sellers happy and its a deal.

Even the auctions do give you the option of running down the front for a closer look at the fish before you bid and thats a good thing. :)

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Just throwing something in to chew over -

From a scientific point of view, these fish haven't been 'formally' identified and assigned a species name (to my knowledge). Also (again to my knowledge), no genetic testing has been done to determine relationships between these and other hypans, so given that they are from different localities of the Rio Xingu, they may be simply variations of the same species displaying spatial variability within the species - which is kind of supported by the presence of natural crosses between the two. Both the 333 and 066 display a fair amount of variation within their respective groups as well, indicating that the 333/066 complex is quite 'fluid' in their appeareance.

Just speculating...

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If anyone has any crosses they are going to cull, dont kill em!

I have an 8ft display they can happily live the rest of their innocent little lives out in without the temptation to breed, and even if they did, the fry wouldn't last long in there...

Pm me

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nope no cheating , its not allowed , but i have spoken to him , thanx for pikn those fish up for me tday trev much appreciated

Thats no problem Les, i enjoyed the drive.

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No breeder likes to cull. It rips my heart out to do it sometimes but its got to be done. Fortunately its a rare thing now as I have pretty good stock and I manage their upkeep a lot better as well.

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Most people cull pretty hard to avoid feeding worthless fish so why should the buyer be stuck with the cost of raising some other dodgy breeder/sellers culls.

I think you mistake the term culling. It does not mean get it out of the tanks fast and sell it cheap to buyers, it means you destroy the fish so it does not leave your fishroom alive.

On rare occasions I have had injured fry with a busted fin which won't heal right and I will become soft and give it away to someone who just wants something to live in his planted tank or in fact someone who's really scared to buy L's first up as they are paranoid they might kill them.

At least the fish gets a chance to live longer but it is pretty rare for me to be soft on culling.

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I agree with brenda and can rememder one Black Ghost Knife fry that had a double tail fin, normaly I will cull it or feed off to a bigger fish but didnt have the heart coz it looked so damn cute. Igrew it out to 8cm and named it after Beani ( old cartoon Beani and the dragon/sea serpent, who wore a hat that had a propellar on it) I gave this to a good customers child who hasnt stopped smiling since.

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