Line breed, Cross breed, in breed and colour morphed L's

[bristlenosejohn]

Hello all,

During the course of the last few months there has been allot of focus on a few L species and discussions regarding the quality and there lineage, i have read through most of the comments and these are not old points as they have been whispered between breeders and hobiest's alike for as long as I can remember. However no one really wanted to stand up and be accountable as there would be a chance of alienation and even more so for allot of breeders the realization that some or more of there stock does have some kind of impurity.

These issue's have occurred due in most part to people not researching there purchases before handing over the money and also being complacent with issues such as slight colour morphs to elongated bodies to "just believing the seller" due to reputation, this coupled with the fact that allot of so called L experts have only been keeping / breeding L's for a few years and have been appointed experts (not self appointed).

So above is my impression and others in the industry that share the same views and concerns for these and other spieces of "Aquarium Breed" fish in this country (as across the globe). So what can be done about this to protect or at the very least have more transparency within the industry??

As those who know me know my passion for this great industry /hobby and with that I am again going to put my money where my mouth is and actually try be proactive to rectify these issues. My proposal is to work with institutions such as Universities and other knowledgeable and experienced Ornamental fish enthusiast to make a cataloging system for "Australian Aquarium Breed" fish and have a easy cataloging system that will help describe and identify fish from WC to worst case's of inbreeding /line breed/ cross breed to colour morphs. I would like to do this due to the plain facts that whilst ever there are un informed keepers there will always be these variances of fish and these will continue to be sold/ traded (as have been for many years). This forum will play a major part in this as when the time comes to accumulate fish pictures and specimens for gene verification you the members can be a huge asset to help make this happen.

So you may be asking "what about the now" well to answer simply I would see this as a great opportunity for every breeder/ hobbiest to actually go out and buy reference books and then look at your fish and cross reference what you believe you have to what the fish actually may be. As for trading your L's make sure you check what you buy and check what you sell and if in doubt about what you have .. then be open and honest about it.

I will finish by saying that I am know way in any form a L number expert and I don't believe that I ever will be, this is due to the fact that nature has been doing this a heck of allot longer than I will be around and I will always be learning new ways to improve the well being and quality of life for my fish.

I will be leaving this post open to hear what your thoughts are on my suggestions and feed back is welcome.

Regards

John

[rex82]

I am far from expert..... But how do you cross reference a fish you rarely see come out of a log? Plus.... They all seem to look the same :/

[bristlenosejohn]

True mate ..just lucky we have quick shutter speeds for cameras..lol

The reference book would cover all species including discus mate..lol how many are miss represented and often wrongly crossed and then more colour/ pattern variations that would be good to clarify along with many other species.

[The Tech Den]

I guess you believe in bite off more than you can chew and chew like crazy.

I think if you go down the track of a book - by the time you have it proof read or if not earlier it would be outdated.

Perhaps rather than a book perhaps a binder and a continuous progression of works like what the hobby is. Supply chapters with revised information on previous chapters.

That way it does not go out of date and remains relevant to current times.

I think a good start would be geneology, family that species belong to, origins, grading and then onto species. As a to understand the first in what I mentioned makes it so much easier to understand the later with individual species.

Identification and grading will be interesting as a common issue with grading is self assessed or someone gets an opinion of another whom really should not be giving suggestions.

Breeding and line breeding will be interesting as some physical traits that are line breed will differ to that of original conception making it more grey than black and white.

Breeding and the need to cross as in history shows where there has only been one species obtained and trying to keep the species in existance V's non necessary crossing will be educational as it seems generally accepted in some circles yet not in others.

For example of non necessary and accepted is the Bristlenose where Albino's throwing Commons and Longfins throwing shortfins. Personally I do not like the idea of buying a fish that can not replicate that of its parents but would be good for a lot of people to realise that although it might be good to get a spawn - it is disappointing to others like if someone pays for a Longfin Albino that is the fry that should come from that fish.

Anyways I am digressing - good luck.

[rex82]

True mate ..just lucky we have quick shutter speeds for cameras..lol

The reference book would cover all species including discus mate..lol how many are miss represented and often wrongly crossed and then more colour/ pattern variations that would be good to clarify along with many other species.

Yeah true true. I will be breeding discus again John, this time only wilds. I know the

Market is slow for wilds but I couldn't give a rats haha.

[cram]

sound like you're going to be busy John!

in the L thread, I nearly offered to go to brazil, catch some type specimens, bring them back (dead and preserved), conduct some taxonomic and DNA analysis and compare them to those that we have here....assuming there was a nice bit of funding to pay the plane trip etc

you're probably not talking about this sort of level but its interesting, in that assuming you have type specimens, or access to them, or go and catch your own, anyone can describe an undescribed species of fish. All you need to do is conduct the taxonomic analysis and publish it in a peer reviewed journal. So its not actually impossible for someone here to describe (and name) the un-named (i.e. scientific name) Ls (and other fish) in the hobby. There's probably a bit of toe stepping involved though.....

[Mutli]

With the size of the gene pool here in Aus, I would think buying other fish to add to the bloodline would be quiet hard when not many get imported

[goldenswimmers]

I can see this being a bit of a hard beginning...and like techden think it needs to be in an updateable form..or have new editions released yearly etc(might not be so hard as not all fish would require updating)...the beginning is hard because its a bit all over the shop...but it has to start somewhere and then you can actually start to track and trust different lines etc...big probem is that its all hearsay at the moment...get knowledged people on board and its a step in the right direction if you ask me...alot of "novice" breeders dont even know/care for linebreeding and this is a big part of the problem...but when beautiful fish are consistently created then people will start to realize the strengths of linebreeding...plus less "ripoffs"...the day you think your an expert is the day you confirm yourself as a novice

[goldenswimmers]

With the size of the gene pool here in Aus, I would think buying other fish to add to the bloodline would be quiet hard when not many get imported

I agree Multi and on that point...its better to stabilize 2 or 3 lines(if thats all thats available) than to interbreed/crossbreed and create no lines/jeopardise the genetic makeup...

[goldenswimmers]

If people are new to line breeding and think its hard work...I think the simplest way to start at home is a (semi )decent camera,a pen and a notebook...pictures of individual breeders,type of fish(confirmed) and resulting fry(dont need pictures of fry necessarily but a spawn dating and breeders involved as identified by your pics..easy)...easy start and then track and control your breeding down the line...sounds like "line"breeding...sorry off topic but might help someone somewhere

[Mutli]

I agree Multi and on that point...its better to stabilize 2 or 3 lines(if thats all thats available) than to interbreed/crossbreed and create no lines/jeopardise the genetic makeup...

As in line breeding?

[goldenswimmers]

yep sorry bit confusing with the words hey...yeah isolate the lines as soon as you are aware they ARE different lines (no inter"line"breeding is what i should have said)...you might be able(not sure on catfish situation so dont quote me;)) to interlinebreed down the track once lines are stablilized(numbers and genetics wise) and if vigour is required to refresh genetics etc but this needs to be done in a controlled fashion(a "one" off introduction etc depending on outcomes too hence alot more control/experience/monitoring would be required)....maybe this could be required in time due to limited lines and genetics here in Australia with these L guys from the sounds of things....just my 5c coin on the topic

Edited May 27, 2012 by goldenswimmers

[Brengun]

Not a bad idea keeping records of who you obtained the fish from and when and photos of their development.

Where possible I keep individual photo files of each fish and I do also keep records of spawns and photos of the fry.

I like photographing fish. Playing with photos especially on new fish does stop me peering in so much at the real fish and disturbing them.

Its not like plecos breed madly like bristlenoses (especially those rotten lazy infuriating L134's) so it does take a while to establish if you have a good bloodline or not.

[steve6610]

where did a long fin bn come from. ??? where did an albino bn come from, where did a marble bn come from........... ?

i'm guessing you can find lf marble bn in the wild.............

in my opinion they are just color and fin variations of the common bn, so they aren't hybrids or cross breeds........ but thats just my opinion.........

[The Tech Den]

Steve where do you draw the line?? Crossbreed Hybrid. If it crosses in the same family is that ok which would mean that you can cross all Ancistrus. That is one of the great debates. Is a hybrid only a hybrid where it has not happened in nature? Is a Hybrid a hybrid if they are in nature. There are a lot of accepted hybrids in the hobby where they are not considered hybrids. I think from memory there were 3 different types of "Common Bristlenose" that was in Australia. What are you meant to believe? Do you believe PlanetCatfish? Ancistrus cf. cirrhosus • Loricariidae • Cat-eLog • PlanetCatfish Have a read of the identification. I think it just shows how little we know - even on the commons?

[steve6610]

thats my point, where do you draw the line,

What does 'hybrid' mean?

The combination of two different things results in the development of a hybrid.

In terms of Genetics; combination of two varient genomes from two genetically varient parents results in the development of offspring which are called Hybrids. Such as a horse and a donkey mating will produce a mule,

A hybrid is a mix of two things to form one. Usually, the goal of a hybrid is to gain some advantage that neither of the two originals could achieve alone. The term hybrid can be used to classify a wide variety of things.

Hybrid plants. If you have a white flower and a red flower, you can cross-pollinate them to make a pink flower, the hybrid.

Hybrid animals, such as the offspring of a lion and tiger.

Hybrid populations. In the United States, for example, many children are hybrids of two homogeneous immigrant populations.

Hybrid vehicles, such as the Toyota Prius, which incorporate both a gas-fueled combustion engine with a battery driven engine.

Hybrid words, which have roots from two different origins (most often one in Greek and one in Latin, such as "television").

Hybrid creatures in mythology, which are icons of two or more real-world animals.

Hybrids are the offspring of two different species.

in my opinion a hybrid is 2 different species, i had this same debates when breeding reptiles, how can a bn that breeds common bn and albino bn be a hybrid, or even lf and sf, the fry are still the same as the parents/grandparents, you aren't creating a "new animal" ,

yes they can be looked as "crossed" or "not breeding true" but they are still a bn,

i like this one, "Piebald veiltail variety" but i see them as a color/fin variation, not a different breed

but thats just my thoughts,

take the albino darwin python, its still a darwin python, albino bred to a normal will still breed a darwin python, they aren't classed as hybred,

[Brengun]

We could of course just enjoy them for what they are, cool little South American catfish.

[steve6610]

i do agree with you on a few points les, so its not all bad,

but a 66 cross 333 ?,

i don't like it being done, and would look at it as a cross, but can see how it can be done by mistake,

many longfin variations of ancistrus are hybryds

i don't agree that lf bn are hybrids, man made yes, line bred for fin length yes, and some don't breed true, but still breed bn,

i don't believe a pair of common bn lf that breed albino sf/lf is a hybrid, because the fry are still bn, just a different color or fin length to their parents, but do look like their grandparents or great grandparents, a hybrid is a different animal to its parents, as with a 066 x 333, you get a different looking fry, that most likely when bred together will never breed a 066 or 333 again,

i also agree there are way to many other fish that have been crossed or hybridised,

les i am setting up 20+ 2ft breeding tanks for my bn, so i'm really looking forward to seeing how many pairs / trios i can get that will breed true,

[steve6610]

i totally understand what your saying les, and i would love mine to breed true, but i do know its not going to happen,

maybe i need to look into getting some from you at a later date when i'm set up and can keep yours totally separated from the ones i have now,

[steve6610]

we may not agree on everything les, and it would be a boring world if we did, but i don't think of you as a beginner or that you have lots of fluke spawns,

[angry]

common shortfin that throw albinos

Any common bn (ANY animal for that matter) has a chance to throw albino offspring.. this is not a (species) crossbreed.

I would assume that most common bn's in Australia have a significantly higher chance of throwing albino fry due to breeders deliberately strengthening the albino gene in an attempt to get more albino fry.. it wasn't so long ago that albino bn's were worth triple or more than a common..

I don't see the point of culling a common that throws albino fry...

Perhaps a start to would be to define the terms - Linebreed, crossbreed, inbreed etc. in relation to the fish keeping hobby in Australia.

Think I better go make some popcorn...

[The Tech Den]

Any common bn (ANY animal for that matter) has a chance to throw albino offspring.. this is not a (species) crossbreed.

I would assume that most common bn's in Australia have a significantly higher chance of throwing albino fry due to breeders deliberately strengthening the albino gene in an attempt to get more albino fry.. it wasn't so long ago that albino bn's were worth triple or more than a common..

That would be understandable if they were trying to strengthen a gene but the issue is that the point of starting that and the point where they are good and breed true and it is the rubbish in between that is dumped onto the market.

When you see a tank full of commons and albino's together that is not strengthening a gene. When you see for sale Marble LF with Marble SF breeding pairs and trio's is not strengthening.

People that have Marble lf breeding with Marble SF and they get their spawn and go well these are the shortfins that came out and these are the longfins that came out. So a marble sf is cheaper than a marble lf. You buy the dearer Marble LF and grow it up and breed from it only to find that only a small percentage of longfins are produced.

The above is the same with Albino LF with SF and Common LF with SF and includes Albino LF with Common LF.

You can understand strengthening but unfortunately those that are strengthening are a minority and those that are chucking everything in a tank is getting larger.

Peps please........ as the song goes you gotta keep em separated.....

[Daydream]

me too.........

[spm78]

l as for hybryds , in my opinion just cull them , theirs enough cross bred rubbish around now , why add to it ?, albino longfins that have common /mixed fry , just as an example and i could fill the page withmore examples but ones enough

Remember this post Les, hows your hybrid long fin peppermints going....

i used a common longfin to get the longfin gene in the peps ,then over the last 8 years i have been breeding the common gene out thus keeping only the pep longfin gene breeding as for stating im fu@$ing a fish pool then how did all these hybreds come about ? the fish i sell will breed true and their will be more than ten no less strains on the market at once and more following what you inbreed is your drama i know i wont be getting mutations as i have almost got to the point i was after and remember it takes 2 yrs to get another line to breed from the way i did this is so simple that after im finished i will get the tech den to tell yous as so simple its not funny thats why i dont work for nassa a lot of people criticise that cant accomplish tasks that others can thats jealousy at its best and to those that want something for nothing guess again they will be pricy.

I like pop corn too

[spm78]

thanks for your concerns and i hope you now understand a little better than you previously did

No problem, after reading you opinion that all hybrids should be culled I couldnt sleep without expressing my concern, the thought of you culling the long awaited longfin peppermint gave me shivers after waiting 3 years since you annonced it to the world. As for my avatar, its simple algebra l168 + l202 = l370 all amature fish keepers no that -)