Inkozana Posted December 9, 2012 Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 (edited) Hi guys, I have an issue that I have tried fixing on good advice but it has come back - it's a long story so thanks for reading until the end. I have a 600L bay full of tetra, angelfish, catfish and gourami that is giving me strife. In the past two weeks there have been at least 20 neon deaths, roughly the same in baby bristlenose and I've lost about four angelfish and three larger bristlenose. The test results from today are below: pH - 7.7 kH - 1-2° gH - 13° Ammonia - 0.0 Nitrite - 0.0 Nitrate - 0.0 Normally the pH would be between 6.5 - 7 and the gH sitting no higher than 7° I was told that the initial problem causing my deaths was from a pH crash because the kH value was so low and the pH did drop down to 4.3 for a couple of hours. I dosed the tank slowly with Seachem's Alkaline buffer and it took my kH to 6-7° and the pH stayed around 7.6-7.8, then I tried to bring it down a bit using the same brand's Acid Buffer (very slowly) and I had the pH sitting at 6.5 again and I was happy. I came in today after my weekend to find at least another 5 deaths of both neons and baby bristlenose, two angelfish and a couple of other tetra. I tested the water straight away and the results are those listed above. I'm not sure what other steps to take, my kH keeps going down and the only thing I can attribute the deaths to would be pH fluctuations or the fact that the gH is now a little high... but for that many deaths it just makes me feel I might not be doing enough, I should be doing more - I hate it when fish die :-( Can anybody give me any advice? If you need any more info I'll gladly try to provide it. Thank-you EDIT: sorry, here is the rest of the template filled out Temperature is 27°C Been running for about 3 years. Filtration is through a sump with bio-noods, coarse & fine foam, pillow softeners & carbon. Fish in tank are mentioned above. Plants in tank are a couple of small anubias on driftwood. Feeding - a variety of foods, once every two days (frozen bloodworm, granules, micro pellets, cucumber..) Recent medication/treatments - no medications or treatments, only stressguard & stability added. Last water change & gravel vacc was on Monday (due again tomorrow) Edited December 9, 2012 by Inkozana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeadFishFloating Posted December 9, 2012 Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 I'm thinking its likely related to temperature and oxygen levels. What is surface agitation like in the tanks? As a "I dunno throw meds at it" option......... do you have any bactonex on hand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inkozana Posted December 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 There are airstones running, the water surface is always agitated so I believe there is enough aeration. I asked The Aquarium Vet about the aeration on the last webinar the other day and he said it should be sufficient and not to worry about over oxygenating the water. I don't have any bactonex but I'm sure I could get some from the tech den? I was also recommended using the black-water conditioner but that will be a bit expensive for 600L :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeadFishFloating Posted December 9, 2012 Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 Where are you measuring temperature? Is it the same in all tanks? Where are you testing ammonia and nitrates? Whats the water flow from sump? Systems are tricky to trouble shoot, as water in tanks is not always the same. Consider dropping back feeding levels a bit I am still leaning towards neon deaths being temperature related. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jabmel Posted December 9, 2012 Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 in these cases if not already done, it never hurts to do a 25-30% water change, to 50% over 3 or 4 days, my 2 cents anyways Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inkozana Posted December 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 The temperature is taken in the middle of the tanks, it does fluctuate sometimes it can be almost 28°C if it is a hot day. The ammonia and nitrate I generally test from the middle tanks. The flow of water through the sump works from a drip system into the sump where it is passed through filter media, a UV filter and then pumped back into row of tanks. I have been trying to feed them yummy meals to keep them happy, so about three days ago I gave them some frozen bloodworm which I defrosted in existing aquarium water and ran through a fine net so I didn't get any of the gunk with them when I fed it and today I put in a small piece of banana which the angelfish and bristlenose were eating but they didn't finish it so I took it out before I left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeadFishFloating Posted December 9, 2012 Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 in these cases if not already done, it never hurts to do a 25-30% water change, to 50% over 3 or 4 days,my 2 cents anyways Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeadFishFloating Posted December 9, 2012 Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 The temperature is taken in the middle of the tanks, it does fluctuate sometimes it can be almost 28°C if it is a hot day.The ammonia and nitrate I generally test from the middle tanks. The flow of water through the sump works from a drip system into the sump where it is passed through filter media, a UV filter and then pumped back into row of tanks. I have been trying to feed them yummy meals to keep them happy, so about three days ago I gave them some frozen bloodworm which I defrosted in existing aquarium water and ran through a fine net so I didn't get any of the gunk with them when I fed it and today I put in a small piece of banana which the angelfish and bristlenose were eating but they didn't finish it so I took it out before I left. If the bulkheads can handle it, swapping the return pump out for a larger one, could be an option. do the individual tanks have secondary filtration, eg an airpowered sponge filtration? did the deaths start when the weather heated up? do any of the fish show signs of columnaris infection prior to death? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inkozana Posted December 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 I have not seen ANY signs of worms, which is good. The deaths started about 2 weeks ago so I suppose that could tie in with the weather... Each tank has its own airstone but apart from that their overflow is taken down to the bottom sump and they are gravel vacc'd once a week. Would you recommend maybe giving all the media a rinse to loosen up the particles? I once got that advice and it helped a little for a different problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeadFishFloating Posted December 9, 2012 Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 weird that nitrates are 0ppm you would expect sludge build up in sump to cause the usual symptom of OTS, which is high nitrates. How heavily are tanks stocked? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inkozana Posted December 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 They are stocked relatively heavy, mostly tetra in big numbers and baby bristlenose, not too many angels or gourami. I haven't had issues with stocking the tanks before but I suppose there's a first for everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Braddo Posted December 9, 2012 Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 Can I ask if you stir up the substrate much. Also what is the mulm build up like in the sump? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inkozana Posted December 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 For example one 60L tank would be stock (at the highest): 4 x angelfish (3cm) 20 x rummynose tetra 4 x bristlenose (5cm) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inkozana Posted December 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 I try not to stir up the substrate, I got over it carefully with the gravel vacc as there's a lot of bristlenose poopies to pick up. In the sump you will find some finer mulm in places but mostly it gets filtered out, the finer wool media I replace once a month or else it can become clogged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Braddo Posted December 9, 2012 Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 ok what is the substrat gravel or sand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inkozana Posted December 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 It is gravel about 5mm and about 1cm in depth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Braddo Posted December 9, 2012 Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 wonder if it is gas build up under the gravel? I am ony clutching at straws here but if mulm does build up under the gravel as it breaks down it can cause sulfer gas underneath I would definately stir up the substrate every water change to prevent this happening both bristlenose and neons are lower to bottom dwelling fish. Just a wild guess but you never know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inkozana Posted December 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 I don't think so, the gravel is moved around quite a bit my the bristlenose to prevent pockets of gas from growing harmful bacteria, the reason I keep the gravel level low in the tanks is to prevent this and make is faster to gravel vacc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inkozana Posted December 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 Maybe it is time I tried some medication? I just don't have any symptoms .. The neons go very vivid in colour after they have died is that a symptom? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inkozana Posted December 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 is everyone stuck like me now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeadFishFloating Posted December 9, 2012 Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 that sounds like nitrite poisoning. how are you dechlorinating? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daydream Posted December 9, 2012 Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 Problem being that you had ph of 4.3 if the gill membrane got burnt on your fish they will slowlly die.Its a bit like walkeing around with half a lung you will for a while but in the end you just cant.Sorry to hear of your losses but this would be my best gues of wat has happend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inkozana Posted December 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 (edited) I use prime to dechlorinate, I always put in at least the correct dose, preferably an extra half a dose to make sure. When I first came across the issue the pH had not crashed yet, I thought that the fish were dying due to chlorine poisoning (if someone did a water change and didn't put any dechlorinater in) but nobody put their hand up for making that kind of mistake and after I cleaned the tank and put in the acid buffer .. that is when the pH crashed. Edit: I came to the conclusion of chlorine poisoning because the fish that were most affected were closest to the refill, also the water had gone cloudy and the only negative reading on my test at that stage was about 0.25 Ammonia which in my mind was more likely to be from the decaying fish that had died already, rather than be the cause of what had killed them. I also had water tests that had been done a couple of days prior that showed nitrate of about 20-40ppm and when I tested it again that day the nitrate was gone, so that is why I thought a water change had been done. Edited December 9, 2012 by Inkozana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Braddo Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 The other thing is if water changes are carried out on weekends the chlorine will come through the taps at higher levels. The more people that are home on weekends the faster the water is used, the chlorine doesnt disipate as much. I live in a high tourist area so we really cop it, so much in fact we can smell the chlorine as we drink it on the weekends. I do water changes on Sundays so I use double strength nuetraliser. Which is why I like superchlor so much. Local made so I trust it more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Braddo Posted December 10, 2012 Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 The other problem if you say the water was cloudy was that coming out of the tap. This usually means they have scrubbed the pipes which is really bad. But it still doesnt answer why it is only neons and bristle nose if these were the case evrything should be gone. Maybe daydream has hit the nail on the head. the smaller the fish the more likely to be affected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
