Continued discussion on the reclassification of Melanochormis cyaneorhabdos

[matt_a]

To continue discussion from another thread (found here Fry that arent selling):

You dont have to agree with a name change, hence why names change.

Would be interesting to get some shots of their fangs up.

I do like my thoughts on a matter to be changed due to evidence.

You are correct that you don't have to agree with certain reclassifications. The entire process can be quite political, just look at the Metriaclima/Maylandia debate.

Having said that, more often then not a description or reclassification with supporting evidence will be accepted.

If you ever want to view the evidence for yourself, it is available to you. In the case of the reclassification of Pseudotropheus cyaneorhabdos, the relevant articles are as follows:

Original description of "Melanochromis"

Trewavas, Ethelwynn. 1935. "A Synopsis of the Cichlid Fishes of Lake Nyasa". Annals and Magazine of Natural History. Series 10; pp. 65-118

Original descrition of "Pseudotropheus"

Regan, Charles Tate. 1922. "The Classification of the Fishes of the Family Cichlidae.--II. On African and Syrian Genera Not Restricted to the Great Lakes". Annals and Magazine of Natural History. v. 9(n. 10), p 252

Original description of "Melanochromis cyaneorhabdos"

Bowers, Nancy & J. Stauffer. 1997. "Eight new species of rock-dwelling cichlids of the genus Melanochromis (Teleostei: Cichlidae) from Lake Malawi, Africa". Ichthyological Explorations of Freshwaters. v. 8 (1); pp. 49-70

Reclassification of "Pseudotropheus cyaneorhabdos"

Tawil, Patrick. 2002. "Notes sur le genre Melanochromis et l'appartenance générique de Pseudotropheus johannii Eccles, 1973, et espèces apparentées". L'an Cichlidé. v. 2; pp. 61-68

Before you ask DFF, no I have not reviewed all of these documents myself. I have faith in the experts to deal with these issues until such time as I am suitably qualified to do so myself.

Who have the rights to changes these species name? Just wondering who ideas?

I believe there is no required qualifications to describe or reclassify species; it is a matter of publishing an article in accordance with the relevant codes in a peer reviewed journal. If your article is accepted by your "peers" (other biologists and ichthyologists) then it becomes official.

It depends on who changes the name.

If it is a scientist who has done the work and is 100% correct with his findings, then reclassify the species.

It is important to have the species name correct.

In saying that fish in the past have been "identified" by Axelrod etc and have proven to be wrong.

Guess we have to rely on the latest info available and go with it.

From habit i will say Melanochromis maingano until Pseudotropheus is more widely used.

It will always be difficult to break old habits, but if we don't start now and proactively use the (currently) correct names ourselves, the greater community will continue to live in the past.

On the difference between Pseudotropheus and Melanochromis:

Pseudotropheus is distinguished from Melanochromis by the absence of a reversion of the melanin pattern in dominant individuals (Tawil, 2002b; Konings-Dudin et al., 2009).

My comments on this matter:

My general feeling is that Pseudotropheus cyaneorhabdos was reclassified, not so much because it closer resembles Pseudotropheus, but because it excludes itself from being classified as Melanochromis. I would not be surprised to see it reclassified into a newly erected genus at some point in the future.

Ok go!

[matt_a]

Interestingly enough, of the 8 Melanochromis species described in the article in which Pseudotropheus cyaneorhabdos was originally described, 3 descriptions are currently valid, 3 have been reclassified as Pseudotropheus, and 2 have been found to be synonyms of already existing species.

It does make you wonder if the authors did in fact do their homework before publishing.

[mbunamad]

I myself don't care much which species they end up belonging to.

It might be a Melanochromis maingano or Pseudotropheus maingano but it is a Maingano.

It might be a Metriaclima lombardi or Pseudotropheus lombardi but it is a Lombardi.

I too like to use the "correct" species name but most hobbiests don't want to lose sleep over it.

However in some cases it is important if you are discussing fish ,eg ikola to determine whether it is Tropheus or Frontosa [Gibberosa]

Enjoy the hobby and lets not get too bogged down in species names.

And my pet hate in the trader here is FS: Blue Peacock or Gold peacock.

Fish keepers should know which peacocks they have be it Auloncara stuartgranti or Auloncara lwanda etc.

When buying peacocks for breeding know which variant it is and write it down so there is no confusion when selling your juvies.

Ahhh i feel better now!!

[mbunamad]

I am surprised there hasn't been any input from other Malawi keepers.

Where are you DFF, Somethingfishy,DFishkeeper,JWoods and others??

[matt_a]

It is very strange indeed.

[a-f-a]

Nope plane as day melenochromis

horizontal stripes - elongated body - angry as hell = melanochromis

[matt_a]

It's interesting that people's reasoning for disagreeing with the experts is due to the fish's stripes (which are one of the key points that excludes it from being Melanochromis.)

[unheatedtank]

I will never care about those long names... If I buy salt, it is salt, not crystalline mineral sodium chloride

[matt_a]

I think you are underestimating the importance of this topic. It is about much more than simply knowing what to call a fish.

[a-f-a]

Stripes / body shape / behavior / habitat yes that is my concision

who is the expert?

Bimbo chromed for example are based on there blotch pattern and as stated a fusco is closer to the tyrannochromis than a nimbochromis. but its still a nimbo due to pattern boom I don't care if you can google some morons false findings on google as any doosh can post some crap on the net. The facts are in front of you so open your eyes and look at the fish itself and think about it

[matt_a]

Stripes / body shape / behavior / habitat yes that is my concision

As mentioned before, the stripes specifically prevent maingano from being classified as Melanochromis. I do not think anyone could reasonably argue that the body shape is more similar to say M. auratus as opposed to P. elongatus. The behaviour, whilst not dissimilar to Melanochromis species, is probably more similar to certain Pseudotropheus species (maingano and johanni are famed for their aggression after all) and habitat... well that's a mute point as Pseudotropheus and Melanochromis cohabitate.

who is the expert?

In this case the primary expert is Patrick Tawil, plus other unnamed experts who have reviewed his work.

Bimbo chromed for example are based on there blotch pattern and as stated a fusco is closer to the tyrannochromis than a nimbochromis. but its still a nimbo due to pattern boom I don't care if you can google some morons false findings on google as any doosh can post some crap on the net. The facts are in front of you so open your eyes and look at the fish itself and think about it

The original description on fusco's was done back in 1922 as Haplochromis fuscotaeniatus. It was reclassified into Cyrtocara 60 years later, and then into Nimbochromis over 20 years ago. I have no doubt that it will be reclassified in the future. Whether it is into Tyrannochromis, another existing genus, or a genus yet to be erected remains to be seen.

[Supercobwe]

Nope plane as day melenochromis

horizontal stripes - elongated body - angry as hell = melanochromis

Yep!!!!!

Stripes / body shape / behavior / habitat yes that is my concision

who is the expert?

Bimbo chromed for example are based on there blotch pattern and as stated a fusco is closer to the tyrannochromis than a nimbochromis. but its still a nimbo due to pattern boom I don't care if you can google some morons false findings on google as any doosh can post some crap on the net. The facts are in front of you so open your eyes and look at the fish itself and think about it

I can not agree more, doesn't matter how people say or call them I will stick with my original point maingano is melanochromis family.

I am surprised there hasn't been any input from other Malawi keepers.

Where are you DFF, Somethingfishy,DFishkeeper,JWoods and others??

Because they can see there is no point of argue over what it is call but stick with their original name is the way to go;)

[matt_a]

I am quite perplexed at the lack of thought out discussion here.

I am hearing echos of "the world is flat, if you sail too far you will fall off the edge, you sir must be crazy!"

[unheatedtank]

And I read a post from unsellable fry to a big time spending thread, time should be spent on fishing or WC, should't it?

[matt_a]

I guess everybody has their own take about what the hobby is to them; for me personally I love learning about the fish I keep, their habits, their traits, and how they are classified is a huge part of that.

Admittedly I spend a lot more time studying up on fish than most people, but I am quite proud to have a knowledge of cichlids that exceeds 99% of the people out there.

Understanding classification is much more than just having a name to refer to our fish by. For example, I have never kept Melanochromis vermivorus, but after hearing only the name I already have a good idea of what this particular fish is.

If classification was not important, we would not talk about American cichlids versus African cichlids, or even cichlids versus tetra or catfish. Classification exists on many levels, the further we choose to drill down, the better we can understand our fish.

[Michael_M]

I agree with Matt; I think their behaviour is more similar to some pseudotropheus.

Haven't found them to be anywhere near as aggressive as people seem to believe. Less aggressive than the Metriclima I've kept, as well as my Tropheops. Rougly on par with my Cyno Hara; I'd consider them medium aggression mbuna.

I think the pseudotropheus classification fits better personally. I think Nimbochromis is a good fit for Fusco's too.

[matt_a]

Personally I do not think Nimbochromis is the best fit for fuscos, but having said that I am not schooled up on what defines that genus.

Quite often we probably focus on what may be more insignificant points when it comes to classification without realizing the key properties which are being considered by the experts. I have recently enrolled in a Bachelor of Zoology, part time, with no goal of having a career in the industry but simply to improve my understanding of these sorts of topics.

Another key point to make in regards to classification is that many fish have been assigned to a genus that seems the best fit at the time and are no doubt destined for reclassification in the future. There are only a handful of people devoting their time to the classification of cichlids, and it is not a quick and simple process.

Once upon a time the majority of Lake Malawi cichlids were classified as Haplochromis. That seems so erroneous and outdated to us now. One day we will look back at all the fish that are currently classified as Pseudotropheus and think about how archaic our classification was in the early millennium.

[mbunamad]

Matt said:

"but I am quite proud to have a knowledge of cichlids that exceeds 99% of the people out there."

Geez that is a huge call.

How can you possibly know that?

[Daydream]

Still just another blue fish.lol

[matt_a]

I guess the makeup of my brain is a bit different to the average folk. I suffer from, or rather enjoy, Asperger's syndrome. What I lack in social skills I make up for in the ability to seek and absorb information. I spend more time reading and researching than I do actually spending time with my fish, and I have done so for over 15 years. I have been lucky enough to have met many people in the hobby and spent quality time with some very knowledgeable and experienced old hands, and I have been paying attention.

And on top of that, due to the wonders of the internet, accurate and up to date information is readily available to those who seek it, much more so than in previous generations when people have had to rely on printed media (which is yet another resource that is still available to me,) and this is something that I have been exploiting to the best of my ability.

I didn't mean to belittle anyone with that statement if that was how it was interpreted.

[Mirage]

It's interesting that a quick google search indeed depicts them as pseudo. The usual site selling them are listing them as their old names.