Rare american cichlids list needs updating

[myster619]

The old list can be found here http://ozfishforsale.com.au/forum/index.php?topic=44.0

PLease note that I did not compile this list. I have only tried to update the status of the fishes in the new list.

Updated List June, 2013

This list does not say what fishes are in Australia in total, but only the rarer fishes. It also does not include species that can be imported. This list can be particularly useful to bring back the very rare-probably lost species back to less common status. But it will take time, patience and motivated breeders.

Common to Rare can be found in shops

Very rare to Probably lost are the ones that need some work

It still needs work as I do not know everything ... So please come forward to chip in if you have some details. Thank you.

American Cichlids:

Acaronia nassa - Probably Lost

Aequidens coeruleopunctatus - Probably Lost

Aequidens itanyii – Probably Lost

Aequidens pallidus - Probably Lost

Aequidens paraguensis - Probably lost

Aequidens rivulatus 'white band' - Rare

Aequidens sapayensis - Very Rare many pairs spawning in Eastern Australia

Aequidens tetramerus - Probably lost

Amphilophus alfari - Probably Lost

Amphilophus labiatum - Rare (true form)

Amphilophus popenoi – Probably lost

Amphilophus trimaculatus - Rare (true form)

Australoheros facetus - Probably lost

Australoheros oblongum - Probably lost

Biotodoma cupido - Probably Lost Non-breeding colonies present but no spawning activity that we're aware of so Very Rare with no reproduction

Biotodoma wavrini - Probably Lost

Caquetaia kraussi – Probably Lost

Cichlasoma urophthalmus - Very Rare

Crenicichla gaeyi - Probably Lost

Crenicichla johanna - Extremely rare

Crenicichla Lepidota - Probably Lost

Crenicichla saxatilis - Probably Lost

Crenicichla spp 'surinam' - Probably Lost

Cryptoheros sajica - Very Rare

Cryptoheros septemfasciatum - Very Rare

Cryptoheros spinosissimum - Probably Lost

Ex-cichlasoma atromaculatum - Probably Lost

Geophagus arapiuns - Rare Usually mislabled sp "Rio Branco" or abalios No true specimens present as far as I'm aware – Japes

Geophagus argyrostictus - Extremely Rare Becoming more wide-spread but still hard to find

Geophagus columbian/venesualan - Very rare Often hard to find but established breeding colonies present

Geophagus daemon – Probably Lost

Geophagus megasema - Probably Lost Now completely unknown of in Australia

Geophagus proximus - Probably Lost Only one last pair known in 2011

Geophagus rio tocantins - Very Rare Altifrons "Tocantins" Often hard to find but established breeding colonies present

Geophagus Rio Tombetas - Extremely Rare

Guianacara geayii - Probably Lost

Guianacara sphenozona - Probably Lost

Gymnogeophagus australis - Probably Lost

Gymnogeophagus balzani - Probably Lost

Gymnogeophagus gymnogenys - Probably Lost

Gymnogeophagus rhabdotus - Probably Lost

Herichthys cyanoguttatus - Extremely rare

Hoplarchus psittacus - Probably Lost

Hypselecara coryphaenoides - Probably Lost

Krobia itanyi - Probably Lost

Laetacara araguaiae - Probably Lost

Nandopsis Haitiensis - Extremely rare

Nandopsis tetracanthus - Rare (some available in wa)

Parachromis loisellei - Probably Lost

Parachromis motaguense – Probably Lost

Paraneetroplus sieboldii - Probably lost

Satanoperca acuticeps - Probably Lost

Satanoperca daemon - Probably Lost

Thorichthys aureum – Probably Lost

Thorichthys helleri - Probably Lost

Tomocichla sieboldii – Probably Lost

Uaru amphiacanthoides - Rare

Vieja argentea - Extremely rare

Vieja bifasciatum - Rare

West African Cichlds:

Aequidens portalegrensis – Probably lost

Anomalochromis thomasi - Rare

Chromidotilapia guentheri - Probably Lost

Cichlasoma amazonarum - Rare

Hemichromis spp. - Extremely rare (true spp.)

Teleograma brichardi - Probably lost

Etropline cichlids (Asia & Madagascar):

Etroplus sp. (both the green & gold chromides) - Very rare

Edited July 9, 2013 by myster619

[ozmo]

I'm curious... Is there any point to all these 'copy and paste' lists of American cichlids lately?

At least you have not attempted to hide the origin of the content.

[grubby]

I just moved Archocentrus spp to new name of Cryptoheros. I have 3 Sajica 1 female 2 males, yet to spawn, one of our members is raising fry from a pair that the female is now dead. I am chasing more Sajica interstate this week for fresh bloodstock.

Rare american cichlids list needs updating

American Cichlids:

Aequidens tetramerus - Probably lost

Aequidens paraguensis - Probably lost

Aequidens coeruleopunctatus - Probably Lost

Aequidens pallidus - Probably Lost

Aequidens rivulatus 'white band' - Very Rare

Aequidens itanyii – Probably Lost

Aequidens sapayensis - Very Rare (many pairs spawning in Eastern Australia)

Aequidens tetrameras – Probably Lost

Acarichthys heckelii - Rare (Occasionally difficult to source, but solid presence with no foreseeable risk)

Acaronia nassa - Probably Lost

Amphilophus trimaculatus - Less common (True Form)

Amphilophus alfari - Probably Lost

Amphilophus labiatum - Probably Lost

Apistogramma bitaeniata 'kleei' – Rare (Most of the above have wild-caught stock being imported, as they're on the legal import list)

Apistogramma brevis - Probably Lost (Most of the above have wild-caught stock being imported, as they're on the legal import list)

Apistogramma caetei - Extremely Rare (Most of the above have wild-caught stock being imported, as they're on the legal import list)

Apistogramma macmasteri – Rare (Most of the above have wild-caught stock being imported, as they're on the legal import list)

Apistogramma steindachneri - Very Rare (Most of the above have wild-caught stock being imported, as they're on the legal import list)

Apistogramma trifasciata - Very Rare (Most of the above have wild-caught stock being imported, as they're on the legal import list)

Apistogramma viejita - Extremely Rare (Most of the above have wild-caught stock being imported, as they're on the legal import list)

Apistogrammoides pucallpaensis - Probably Lost (Most of the above have wild-caught stock being imported, as they're on the legal import list)

Astronotus ocellatus longfin - Less Common

Biotodoma cupido - Probably Lost (Non-breeding colonies present but no spawning activity that we're aware of, so Very Rare with no reproduction)

Biotodoma wavrini - Probably Lost

Caquetaia krausii - Probably lost

Cleithracara maronii – Rare (Solid presence, no risk of disappearing)

Crenicara Maculata - Very Rare

Crenicichla gaeyi - Probably Lost

Crenicichla Lepidota - Probably Lost

Crenicichla saxatilis - Probably Lost

Crenicichla spp 'surinam' - Extremely Rare

Crenicichla johanna - Extremely rare

Cryptohero sajica - Rare

Cryptoheros septemfasciatum - Very Rare

Cryptoheros spinosissimum - Probably Lost

Geophagus megasema - Probably Lost (Now completely unknown of in Australia)

Geophagus proximus - Probably Lost (Now completely unknown of in Australia, usually species mislabelled as proximus)

Geophagus daemon – Probably Lost

Geophagus steindachneri – Less Common (Can be supplied through wholesalers)

Geophagus surinamensis - Extremely Rare (Extremely Rare worldwide due to Suriname export restrictions, no true G. surinamensis in the country)

Geophagus brachybranchus – Rare (Very solid population)

Geophagus rio pindare – Rare (Hard to find but can be found on most wholesale lists)

Geophagus rio branco - Very Rare (Often hard to find, but established breeding colonies present)

Geophagus rio tocantins - Very Rare (Altifrons "Tocantins": Often hard to find, but established breeding colonies present)

Geophagus Rio Tombetas - Extremely Rare

Geophagus columbian/venesualan - Very rare (Often hard to find, but established breeding colonies present)

Geophagus argyrostictus - Extremely Rare (Becoming more wide-spread, but still hard to find)

Geophagus arapiuns - Rare (Usually mislabled sp. "Rio Branco" or abalios. No true specimens present as far as I'm aware – Japes)

Geophagus tapajos – Rare

Guianacara geayii - Very rare

Guianacara sphenozona - Rare

Gymnogeophagus australis - Extremely Rare

Gymnogeophagus balzani - Extremely Rare

Gymnogeophagus gymnogenys - Probably Lost

Gymnogeophagus rhabdotus - Probably Lost

Heros atromaculatum - Probably Lost

Heros cyanoguttatum – Probably Lost

Heros facetum - Very Rare

Heros longimanus – Extremely Rare

Heros motoguense – Probably Lost

Heros kraussii – Probably Lost

Heros umbrifferum - Rare

Heros spinnosissimum – Probably Lost

Heros seiboldii – Probably Lost

Heros aureum – Probably Lost

Heros ellioti – Probably Lost

Heros popenoi – Probably Lost

Heros zonatum – Extremely Rare

Hoplarchus psittacum - Probably Lost

Hypselecara coryphaenoides - Probably Lost

Hypselecara temporalis – Rare (solid population)

Herichthys cyanoguttatus - Probably lost

Laetacara sp. 'buckelkopf' - Very rare (but imports coming soon, we hope)

Krobia itanyi - Very Rare

Mesonauta festivus - Rare (solid population)

Nandopsis Friedrichsthali - Very Rare

Nandopsis friedrichsthali 'gold' - Rare

Nandopsis loisellei - Probably Lost

Nandopsis octofasciatum - Rare

Nandopsis salvini - Rare

Nandopsis tetracanthus - Very Rare

Nandopsis trimaculatum - Very Rare

Nandopsis urophthalmus - Very Rare

Nandopsis motoguense - Probably lost

Nandopsis facetum - Chanchito - Probably lost

Nandopsis oblongum - Probably lost

Nannacara anomala - Rare

Nannacara aureocephalus - Extremely Rare

Petenia splendida - Rare

Pterophyllum altum - Extremely Rare

Pterophyllum Leopoldi - Extremely Rare

Pterophyllum scalare 'blushing' - Rare

Pterophyllum scalare 'gold blushing' - Rare

Pterophyllum scalare 'veiltail black' - Rare

Pterophyllum scalare 'veiltail blushing' - Rare

Parachromis friedrichsthalii - Less common

Paranetroplus sieboldi - Probably lost

Satanoperca acuticeps - Extremely Rare

Satanoperca daemon - Probably Lost

Satanoperca jurapari - Very Rare

Satanoperca leucosticta – Very Rare

Symphysodon aequifasciata 'aequifasciata' - Rare

Symphysodon aequifasciata 'axelrodi' - Rare

Symphysodon aequifasciata 'haroldi' - Rare

Symphysodon discus 'discus' - Rare

Taeniacara candidi - Extremely Rare

Thorichthys aureum - Very Rare

Thorichthys ellioti - Extremely Rare

Thorichthys helleri - Probably Lost

Tomocichla sieboldi - Probably Lost

Uaru amphiacanthoides - Very Rare

Uaru spp. - Less common

Vieja maculicauda – Rare

Vieja hartwegi - Rare

Vieja bifasciatum - Rare

Vieja zonatum - Probably lost

West African Cichlds:

Anomalochromis thomasi & Hemichromine spp. (Other than "bimaculatus" (guttatus)) - Rare to Less common

Chromidotilapia guentheri - Probably Lost

Chromidotilapia amazonarum - Rare

Chromidotilapia portalegrensis – Rare

Hemichromis elongatus - Probably lost

Hemichromis cristatus - Probably Lost

Hemichromis paynei - Probably Lost

Nannochromis nudiceps - Rare

Nannochromis parilius - Probably Lost

Nanochromis spp. - Very rare.

Nanochromis transvestitus - Extremely rare

Pelvicachromis humilis - Rare

Pelvicachromis taeniatus - Rare

Steatocranus tinanti - Extremely Rare

Teleograma brichardi - Probably lost

Etropline cichlids (Asia & Madagascar):

Etroplus sp. (both the green & gold chromides) - Very rare & rare respectively

Paratilapia polleni - Very Rare

[goldenswimmers]

I agree with ozmo ..I think these lists are way outdated and also how much knowledge can the original list creators have in regards to firstly what is/was in the country and then secondly who has them and how common they actually are...I was fortunate to get some salvini recently that might help add some good genetics to the mix(extra red) and these were being kept by a person who doesn't visit forums or wouldnt have really known about these guys...and this would also be the case with a lot of older hobbyists and others who don't involve themselves in the hobby anymore than water changes and daily feeding...there might be some very nice fish out there...but they are not talked about on a forum etc and so who will know these guys exist...really is just the opinion of those involved and a sampler of the hobby...in saying that we could roll with it and try to update..but the status might change frequently depending on personal opinion/experience...

[Azedenkae]

I'm curious... Is there any point to all these 'copy and paste' lists of American cichlids lately?

At least you have not attempted to hide the origin of the content.

There are three of these lists, the one in this thread is a copy and paste. Grubby's is a list of central americans around. Mine is of all americans around that can be verified. There is only one 'copy and paste' list.

[aqc247]

The list was compiled by an NSW Cichlid Society founder so was pretty much on target back then. But goal posts move, so trying to keep them up to date is not an easy task as peeps keep tight lipped or bluff........

Edited June 13, 2013 by aqc247

[grubby]

I'm curious... Is there any point to all these 'copy and paste' lists of American cichlids lately?

At least you have not attempted to hide the origin of the content.

Mine wasn't copy and paste, I have been making a note of what is available on forums, interstate shops and QLD LFS for about 6 months. Just decided to publish it on here last week to see if I was accurate. I was motivated to do this based on the news that Black Nastys and V Argentae were now here. Myself and Rod have been chasing various Cryptoheros spp on numerous forums for some time now, I still hope one of these list might flush something out new, rare or MIA.

[the cichlid kid]

I was fortunate to get some salvini recently that might help add some good genetics to the mix(extra red) and these were being kept by a person who doesn't visit forums or wouldnt have really known about these guys

Good to hear GS.

Salvini are one of the fish that seemed to have gone way downhill colour wise since I came back to the hobby.

The ones I owned 10 years ago looked like this:

[Rod]

Chromidotilapia amazonarum - Rare

Chromidotilapia portalegrensis – Rare

Never heard of them????

[Fish Junkie]

Salvini are one of the fish that seemed to have gone way downhill colour wise since I came back to the hobby.

The ones I owned 10 years ago looked like this:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]34127[/ATTACH]

That's coz idiots have had 10 years to crossbreed the colour out of them

Also if you can find it I posted lists years ago and I'm pretty sure it includes the one above

FJ

Edited June 11, 2013 by Fish Junkie

[matt_a]

Chromidotilapia amazonarum - Rare

Chromidotilapia portalegrensis – Rare

Never heard of them????

I assume they meant Cichlasoma. Perhaps the author was a tad tired and got a little mixed up with the copy and pasting?

[Azedenkae]

That's coz idiots have had 10 years to crossbreed the colour out of them

Also if you can find it I posted lists years ago and I'm pretty sure it includes the one above

FJ

How does one crossbreed color out of a species?

[ozmo]

How does one crossbreed color out of a species?

Uhmmm... By cross breeding perhaps?

e.g. The recent failure involving an Ellioti would fall under this umbrella IMO.

[aqc247]

I assume they meant Cichlasoma

.... read again Matty, it's listed under West Africans

[Azedenkae]

Uhmmm... By cross breeding perhaps?

e.g. The recent failure involving an Ellioti would fall under this umbrella IMO.

Lol, I'd have thought people were smart enough that I don't need to spell it out, but okay.

Why would crossbreeding decrease the 'quality' of the purebred fish? When one uses a fish to crossbreed doesn't mean others can't use a different fish to breed pure... since you use the Ellioti example, does the fact that it was crossbreed magically decreases the quality of all other Ellioti? Poof, omg now all other Ellioti's quality went to the crapshoot. I don't see how other Elllioti of high 'quality' can't be used to breed more 'quality'... o.o

[Fish Junkie]

[MENTION=6798]Azedenkae[/MENTION]

How can you cross a fish back to pure ?

And yes it decreases all other quality of the crossed fish when they get passed off as either one of the two

of the species used in the crossbreed therefor watering down the purity and gene pool

FJ

Edited June 12, 2013 by gingerbeer
Mod edit

[Rod]

There is a difference between CROSS-breeding....and IN-breeding

Cross breeding is 2 different species

In breeding is Brother and sister...same species

Perhaps it's just an error of description???

You can improve the quality of ornamental fish by selectively in-breeding....although vitality can be increased by out crossing every now and then

You will decrease the quality of ornamental fish by in-breeding without careful selection of breeders

ps....Cichlasoma makes sense....wrong name in wrong spot...

Edited June 11, 2013 by Rod

[Azedenkae]

[MENTION=6798]Azedenkae[/MENTION]

How can you cross a fish back to pure ?

And yes it decreases all other quality of the crossed fish when they get passed off as either one of the two

of the species used in the crossbreed therefor watering down the purity and gene pool

FJ

Mate, if they're a hybrid then they're hardly either of the species anymore (which is why hybrids aren't considered true species).

Though I dont get you. Are you saying the quality of the cross decreases when crossed back to a pure? Nevermind that it's not always true (many breeders cross a hybrid back to a pure specifically to obtain 'better' traits), but well what does that have to do with the quality of the pure? If you say they're crossed back and the purebreed has a decreased quality, then again, they're hardly pure anymore. They're hybrids. And even if they are, it doesn't stop other people (or even the same people) to coninue breeding purebreds.

If we have 10 quality Firemouth and use 1 to crossbreed, you still have 9 to linebreed... those 9 don't suddenly become worst in quality. And if I breed that one Firemouth with whatever other species, whilst you have 2 pairs (4 pairs possibly, but let's go with a more conservative number) then you're still producing on average twice the number of quality Firemouth to my hybrids... and then if I decide to take one of my hybrids to breed with one of your offsprings, then again, we still have heaps of quality Firemouth around. Those Firemouth don't suddenly turn drab or become super deformed when one of their sibling is crossbreed somewhere else...

If one keep and breed pure fish, they will always be pure fish. They wont suddenly turn un-pure if their siblings elsewhere are crossed.

Lack of quality comes from lack of selective breeding, not crossbreeding.

The original example that sparked this is in fact an example of this. Texans/Green Texans may be comminly crossed, so are Red Devils/Midas or other similar looking species, but there are few hybrids of Salvini around in Australia. I know because I love my hybrids just as much as purebreds and looked all over for Salvini hybrids and unlike other interesting species that could be hybridized, it's hard to find mention of Salvini hybrids in Australia. Salvinis are an example of a fish that DOESN'T seem to attribute most of its lost of quality to crossbreeding.

Yes, using a fish for crossbreeding purposes removes it 'out of play' and there could be one less quality fish to linebred. However, there are so many more reasons. People keeping quality fish is a large factor, as that essentially prohibits the fish from contibuting its genes in any way. When it comes to trying to breed quality fish, worse are the one-sex display tanks. These prevents a large number of fish from being able to breed. Then there's the spread of low quality fish. Sometimes I am at fault here, as I don't like to kill my fish. Au contraire, I don't breed my 'low quality' fish either. They're for my personal entertainment. High quality are for other purposes (distribution).

So back to the 10 Firemouths example. I may take one to crossbreed. Bob may take 3 for his display tank. Sam may take one to keep with a low quality fish coz he don't care. In fact, given the number of casual fish keepers out there, it's more like Maria take another to keep with a low quality fish as well. So there's four left for you to breed high quality Firemouth from, and if you're lucky, you get a pair. You probably instead will only get one, or if you're unlucky, none.

And so suddenly starting with 10 high quality fish, we only have a much smaller number producing more high quality fish. Or in the worse case scenario, none, and we have to linebreed from a lower/mid quality stock.

So dont tell me crossbreeding is the source of lower quality fish.

P.S. If you disclude the hybrids from the species, then they will indeed have a smaller gene pool, but are no less pure. If you include hybrids with the species, then the species will be less pure but the gene pool will be larger.

Edited June 12, 2013 by gingerbeer
Mod Edit

[Rod]

Why would crossbreeding decrease the 'quality' of the purebred fish?

I think you have to look at "The Big Picture".....not your personal fish room

Very few people line breed

Very few people can correctly identify the difference between a hybrid and a pure breed fish

Many buy fish believing what they are told by the seller

The majority of cross breeding occurs accidentally....and often offspring are sold as "pure"

So if you have people just breeding what they are sold....without enough experience to properly identify the species....then

Do this often enough....and there are no "Pure" specimens left

You may even get what look like pure fish....that throw some odd offspring...because they have be crossed somewhere in the past

SO....there is an argument that cross breeding by uninformed/novice aquarists can decrease the quality of some species....particularly

Central American Cichlids...where cross-breeding has become a hobby in itself

[Fish Junkie]

Im talking about pure imported fish straight out of the wild

Your already saying there crossed and therefore not pure anyway

I get what you are saying but your in LA LA land if you don't think the crossbreds for whatever reason be

On purpose or not wont get back in to the pure fish gene pool

You are part of that problem !

Heavy culling and time is what's needed to create a new recognised species

FJ

[Fish Junkie]

I think you have to look at "The Big Picture"

The majority of cross breeding occurs accidentally....and often offspring are sold as "pure"

I agree with what you say Rod apart from above

Yes you might get an accidental cross but you don't raise them and sell them accidentally

FJ

[Rod]

What I'm saying is often cross breed fish are sold as "pure"....dishonestly

I didn't say their sale was accidental...only the breeding ...

I have pointed out cross breed convicts in LFS....next week they are still there....still labelled convicts

Someone will buy them as convicts, breed them and sell fry as convicts

Edited June 11, 2013 by Rod

[Azedenkae]

I have to admit that I am wrong on one account, which I even contradicted myself in my own post just now. Crossbreeding does contribute to the problem - but it ia definitely not the major problem, which is what I addressed later on (and then contradicted myself).

Now, moving on, I never said all of them were crossbreeds... some fish we find are hybrids, some aren't many specimens of most species I find are purebreds. Such as with Salvinis, Umbies, Festaes, Bay Snooks, etc. etc. There are not many hybrids of these about.

The big picture is yes, crossbreeding including a purebred in general happens quite often, but I can't imagine it overshadowing the number of purebreeding going on - for every crossbred, accidental or otherwise, there'd be more purebreds out there.

Rod and FJ, you actually hit the problem and the solution on the head.

Many linebreed to keep the lines pure, but not enough are doing it. Not enough are selecting for high quality fish. Like you said earlier Rod, there's a difference between just willy nilly inbreeding, and inbreeding to selectively breed for something good.

Heaps of people breed purebred fish, but few do it in a way to select for 'quality'.

We need more people to breed high quality fish, by heavy culling, by selecting the best fish for breeding, and by not actually keeping super nice fish as display only, and actually breed them. Then we'll have more quality fish around, quality that will just keep improving.

That'd how we'd be able to go from breeding quality from 4 Firemouths to breeding quality from 9 Firemouths (from my example). And the low quality Firemouths won't be included.

But hey, if anyone wants to still believe that I'm a tool or in la la land and that my suggestion is pointless, by all means, believe so. I can't stop you from believing whatever you want or thinking however you want.

[ozmo]

Can I just ask, out of curiosity, what fish, other than hybrids, do you keep Az?

[Azedenkae]

Can I just ask, out of curiosity, what fish, other than hybrids, do you keep Az?

All fish that I've kept? That are (generally not regarded as) hybrids?

I've kept the following cichlids: Bay Snook, Pink Firemouth, Super Green Texas, Convict, Ellioti, Red Forest Jewel, Cobalt Blue Cichlid, Electric Yellow, Festae, Red Devil, Venustus, Angelfish, Blue Eyed.

Other fish: Platties, Mollies, Bristlenose Catfish, Pictus Catfish, Dwarf Gourami, Rainbow Shark, Paradise Fish, Kuhli Loach, Guppies, Neons, White Cloud Mountain Minnows, Goldfish, Koi, Clown Loach.

That's probably it I think. Might be missing a few here and there.