Bloated / Fat / Preg?

[Nini]

I've gone through a few different searches and HEAPS of pages on the forum, but can't find this anywhere.. Giving up the search in asking in hope of some sort of enlightenment.

I know a pic would be useful, but the "female" bn is a turd and refuses to let me take pics of her ..

We've noticed over the last couple of days the smaller bn (too young to sex but I call her a she in hopes that it's a she) has been getting a bit of a fat belly.. Being new to the fish thing, I don't expect them to be breeding yet (I don't think she can catch pregnant off the guppies -- right? lol) especially when she's only about 6cm..

If someone with BN experience could tell me the major signs between "pregnant belly" and "bloat belly", or just plain fat suckerfish, it would be hugely appreciated.. As it is, we're going to the supermarket tomorrow and grabbing some cucumber (for real this time, I've been "going to the supermarket" for the last week, heh) and I'm sure there are frozen peas in the freezer that we can shell for her (these are both 'bloat-fixers' right?).. but if there were marks/puffy bits in spots that differed/different attitude signals that I could look for and confirm/deny.. It would put my mind to rest.

For the record, I don't have my hopes up too high for breeding yet, she's only been in the tank a week and I don't think they even acknowledged each other until yesterday .. The male pep hasn't even bought her dinner yet! (But I am hoping they're both fine and she's healthy and I don't need to stress about them..and "pregnant" belly would make me feel so much better...lol )

[BigPete86]

Breeding BN don't hang together, once the deed is done chicky goes back to livin life & the dude looks after the eggs & for the first few days after hatching, the fry. They're like bad exes who have great sex, they don't acknowledge each other very much but when they're both in the mood...

If she's still eating normally, not lethargic whilst moving, no signs of weird behaviour like constantly hanging at the surface then I doubt it's bloat. Peas are the best 'laxative' for fish if she does have bloat though, good to have on hand just in case.

How many times a day are you feeding them, she might just be a curvy girl

One of your passing comments is actually a possibility, it's a fairly common trick that if you can't get your fish to breed by themselves, throw in a bunch of livebearers to pump the water full of their pheromones & hormones (rabbits of the fish world) which will usually trigger other fish to breed. Get a torch handy & every couple days have a look in the tunnel/cave & see if the male is fanning eggs...

Edited July 26, 2013 by BigPete86

[Nini]

Sorry for the late reply.. been running around like a mad-woman today ..

I threw some peas in there--just in case--so if she doesn't get skinny in the next few days, I'll just call her a fatty She's still happily swimming around, so I won't worry about her TOO much..

I was a bit worried about whether he would actually find the log. He refused to go near the other side of the tank until this morning..and he was trying to hide in the driftwood (he's too big to really fit anywhere successfully..heh). Then he was in the log earlier, and I was stressing that he was stuck.. turns out he likes to go in sideways and suck his way along the side.. stupid fish making me worry >

On a side note -- I'm thinking I stressed everything out too much yesterday when I cleaned and put plants in n stuff.. Woke up to white spot covered guppies Am slowly lifting the temp to 30 -31.. (it's currently 27) will this be okay for the peps? Google said white spot dies at 31 degrees? I just don't want to make the peps die too .. I'm too attached to them already

I also went n spoke to a local aquarium shop.. They were so great. 5pm on a Saturday afternoon and they helped me out with some white spot medication.. I've put that in, and it made the brown in the water disappear (I got impatient and sort of didn't wait for the driftwood to finish leaking before I put it in the tank..).. Is there anything else I should be doing/not doing? :s First tank illness, so I'm all nervous-mother over everything..

[shaninja]

That temperature is too hot for your BN. You shouldn't really go over 28 for them.

Also, you should make sure the medication is ok for scaleless fish. If it mentions half doses for scaleless fish, I'd recommend taking the BN out of the tank until you cure the guppies.

[Nini]

He said to do a half dose for tetras and loaches .. I told him I had guppies and peppermint bristlenose, and he said shook his head and said it would be okay for them.. . .. Have I just killed them?

[BigPete86]

No I don't think so, I've full dosed (& then some one time) with BN in the tank in my earlier fishy yrs & never lost a BN from meds. Lost a few tetras & young apistos with high dose meds but never a BN during treatment. Protozin is da shiznit

I almost don't like posting about fish med probs as I haven't had an ill fish since early last yr & time before that was 2.5yrs ago. I feel like I'm tempting fate x_x

[BigPete86]

The tannins from the wood won't be doing much apart from softening the water. If the water gets too soft the pH can crash but if you're doing regular water changes etc. then i doubt its a pH drop. What did you do cleaning wise (filter mainly?) & what sort of med did you get?

[Nini]

The guys at the aquarium said "It was the good sh*t" .. the stuff they use on their own aquariums, and I was told only to do it once every 3 days "if you even need it".. I was looking at getting one that wanted putting in daily for a week, and they said it wouldn't work for white spot and to get.. "oh, we have none left in stock".. so they went n got some from their back room, and he gave me a little container of it..under the table.. they told me to put in 5ml to 20L (if that even helps? <.<) and yeah.. once every 3 days..

I didn't take anything out of the filter.. the bf said something about the .. .. carbon? something.. but I got scared and dumped the blue stuff in and hoped for the best

From what I've read, our water is "pretty hard".. and we've been testing the water every 4-5 days (going to test it tomorrow), so it's been going okay so far.. Water changes also happen every 4-5 days because the brown tint in the water irritates me after a bit, lol It's usually about 15-20% changes.. "a bucketful" basically.. sometimes 2.

Yesterday when the plants were put in, I gravel vacd the bottom fairly thoroughly.. because I didn't want to stir up all the poop then leave it floating around. I'm not sure of the "proper" way to change water, but we usually take 1 bucket worth out (about 20% of the water) and replace the same amount of water, then take out the next bucket load. I don't think I've touched the filter since we set it all up to cycle.. it's not blocked, slowed or making a weird noise, so I'm just leaving the filter to do its own thing :3 I'm a bit scared about killing the good bacteria and murdering the fish from stupidity.

[BigPete86]

First things first, take the carbon out of the filter/system, it absorbs/neutralizes the active ingredients in the treatment.

Protozin full dose is 5ml to 50L & you dose on day 1, 2, 3, then one more on day 6 but diff ppl rely on diff dosages. I've always used the dosage rate recommended to make sure I knock the lil buggers out & apart from a few small tetras & young Apistos (like 2cm fry) I haven't lost a fish to Ich, Fungus, Worms etc. since I found Protozin, Sterazin & Myxazin all made by Waterlife.

Without knowing the name of the product your using I can't help with dosage rates or anything, dose once every 3days I'm guessing its a strong malachite & formaldehyde solution but I can't be sure...

All good with the filter apart from the carbon (it's gotta go for meds to work), just needed to be sure you didn't tap water rinse media but sounds like you understand the bacteria are essential & can be shocked/killed like fish

In saying that this mystery med will likely kill your bacteria off anyway I'm sorry to say. There's not many meds that don't kill your bacteria which is another reason aside from effectiveness that I use the Waterlife range, they don't kill your bacteria off.

When you water change are you just pouring the bucket of water in? If the water in the bucket is real cold could be temp shock that triggered it, if the chemical diffs between bucket & tank are huge could be a shock from that. Don't hate me for asking but you do dechlorinate your water properly in the bucket before going in the tank? In a fairly small tank it doesn't take much to drop temps, raise chem levels etc.

Only other things I can think of atm that may have triggered it are: Any new stock added before the outbreak? Any sprays, deodorants, perfumes, insect killers been used around the tank?

Sorry for the mass of Q's but ya gotta find the trigger or make sure it was just the stress of the shuffle & clean otherwise as soon as you think it's gone it'll come back...

[BigPete86]

If you get the name of the med they gave ya that'll help too. Can figure out if you're gonna have to cycle again. If you do have to cycle again no major drama, couple options to 'cheat'

There's some good quick start bacteria options you can buy, help jump start the process. Alternatively if you know someone fishy nearby or find someone nice on here you can get some seeded filter media to put in your system or even just a good bucket of dirty water from a filter clean, take dirty water home, pour in tank & let the filter pick up bits & start to establish a colony of bac again.

For best results use both the above methods, a quick start & some dirty filter water or media

I'm happy to help you kickstart your filter if need be but ya probably won't have to drive this far, I'd say someone closer might help, if not I'm happy to.

[BigPete86]

Oh yeah, if after all this is sorted the yellowy water is irritating you there's a few products you can get from a sponsor or an LFS that absorb tannins. Haven't used it myself yet as all my tanks now are rift lake but I think Macropore make a product designed for tannin absorption? Ask Donny or Techy, they'll sell it I'd say...

[Nini]

Holy questions.. It's fine to ask, it may trigger something I hadn't thought of yet..

Um.. everything that is in the tank has been in there for at least a week (6 guppies, 2 bn, 2 cherry shrimp) -- other than the plants that went in the day before they got it. It started with one guppy hanging around the top/bottom low-flow areas (I just assumed she was tired from being pregnant and wanted a "rest" away from the group) but then in the morning there were 2 with their fins clamped, and spots.. and I realised it wasn't just tiredness .. (derp)

Going to do a big water change (~50%) today, take the carbon out of the filter and try again.. There's no difference at all in the tank, so I'm going to assume it got annihilated by the filter, and "start again".. The female pep isn't looking too flash though.. she's skinnier (I guess she ate some pea?) but she's hanging around the top near the heater .. hasn't moved much all morning, and she's not putting a whole lot of effort into sucking.. We put an air stone (bar) in the bottom to give them more oxygen in case that's the problem, but both peps have it.. I just don't think she's coping with it too well.

We put the seachem prime in the bucket of water before we add it to the tank, after swishing it around to mix it through properly.. and the temp of the bucket water is usually not far off the tank temp.

We use little to no sprays in the house, especially near the fish tank.. and it has lids and hoods n stuff covering it ..

Thinking of going to AoA and picking up some protozin .. keep the mystery stuff for a rainy day <.<

[BigPete86]

Sorry been busy for a couple days...

Ok so the trigger was probably the fact they'd only been in the tank a short time, weren't quite settled, then the shuffle etc. set it off.

Or...

The fem guppy that was crook before the rest maybe didn't handle the move to her new home too well, got infected with the parasite due to stress & the ich multiplied from her to the rest.

Or...

The plants came from an infected tank? (never got it from plants myself but its supposedly a possbile cause) either way it's fixable,

Treat with a good white spot med, raise temp to 28, aerate the bejesus out of the tank & good luck

I hope they're still goin, again sorry for late reply, hectic couple days...

Edited July 30, 2013 by BigPete86

[Nini]

I finally got protozin this morning (can you believe all local fish shops are out of stock? Had to go to ebay). I did a big water change and dosed them up.. Day 1 today..

It's a little late though, already lost a male guppy and the male pep.. $50 of pep man meat gone Heater can't seem to get the water past 27-28 degrees (it says it's for 60L, and mine would be lucky to push 55 so I'm a little peeved..)

The guppies WERE from a LFS, but they seemed happy enough in the tank before I added the plants and stuff.. I guess I overestimated their ability to cope a bit.

Plants came from Age of Aquarium, and we have plants we bought from the same tank on the same day in a different tank, and they're fine.. so I can't point the finger at them

Everything went super-sad for a little while, but came good.. the big pep went downhill yesterday, and we lost power super-early this morning for an unknown amount of time.. (microwave was reading 88:88, so something had happened). He was the last I expected to lose.. his face was a bit sunken before we went to bed, and when we woke up his fins were COMPLETELY tattered and he was stiff as anything. I only slept for 6ish hours, and in that amount of time, he was just destroyed.. It's such a frustratingly useless feeling. I posted in here for any other ideas to help him, but apparently there was nothing left to do but to stare at him..

Fem pep is in high spirits (after sitting at the top for a day and a half), and she's gone back to hiding in her driftwood again.. or sitting in the bubble curtain. Only two guppies have the black ring around their eyes, out of the five left.. I don't think there's much else I can do other than stare at them and hope the protozin saves the rest of them.. And here I was thinking it would be easy to treat

I'm thinking I'm discovering the pain of fish-keeping, heh

Thanks for the replies though You're allowed to be busy and have a life

[BigPete86]

Sorry you lost your pep male, white spot sucks & if you've never dealt with it you haven't kept enough fish. We've all been there mate, friggin parasites >x<

Ok, given that info the culprit is :drum::drum::drum::drum::drum:

God Damn Guppies, bloody pests, I know they're pretty but they're sketchy lil buggers. Doesn't take much to set them off.

Can rule out the plants as AOA are very reputable & I highly doubt it came from there not to mention what you said, same tank's plants in another tank with no dramas...

If the temp was only 23-24 in the tank before everything went down then the ich could of been incubating & multiplying in/on the guppies visibly unnoticed as the lower temp slows their growth. Then 4, 5, 6 days later the infestation becomes visible so it probably all began with the gups.

Advice for the future is if you wanna add more fish to an established community (especially touchy, finicky, sensitive or poorly looking fish) then you may wanna setup a quarantine tank/tub or at least have one on hand. It's not a necessity but if you're only keeping small fish then a cheap 2ft tank, 50watt heater, sponge filter conditioned from main tank & a couple plastic or silk plants as fish hides, maybe a couple caves, whatever will make the quarantined fish stress less is a small investment, plenty of 2nd hand stuff for sale on here & with your sponsor discount even if ya buy all new it'll still be pretty cheap (especially if you get more expensive fish, good investment). After you know they're happy being kept in the same water conditions etc. as the main tank for a month or 2 then you can transfer them to the main tank worry free

[Nini]

Yeah, I had narrowed it down to me stressing them out.. bloody LFS fish.. Never again.. We have a common bn in a different tank who isn't looking 100% from a LFS too.. They're not good for anything > .. knew I should've got them privately..asdfasdf

I usually keep the tank around 26-27ish, but yeah, still perfect breeding temp for white spot -.- The more I look at them, the spottier they look.. but I can't not look at them.. I guess it's earned me a notch in my fish-keeping belt.. now to get the "recovered from white spot" badge, so I feel a little better <.< This week can't go fast enough, lol

I thought about a quarantine tank, but the tank I have atm is only 2ft, heh.. I should've got the guppies first so they could infect everything and recover, then the peps... I was just too eager to get the peps.. I hadn't even decided whether or not to get guppies until after I got the male. More planning, less excitement, I guess.. I've never been good at the waiting game. The guppies didn't even look bad in the tank, or when we got them home. I made sure to pick the energetic ones with the full fins/tails that were swimming about happily (to the point where he got one in the net, and I was like "on second thoughts.. I don't want that one, he looks gimpy, get this other one..").

Drummer emotes make me feel a bit better though .. ^.^ He looks happy -- and green O.o wut

Thanks though It's a little comforting to know I'm not the only one who has murdered fish from white spot As terrible as it is to think about other people going through this BS ..

[BigPete86]

It's not all LFS, some of them are great but...

Due to fish usually comin to the shop from miles away, constant tank changes, nets in & out all day, ppl walkin past havin a look, kids tappin on tanks "here fishy fishy!", new stock being added all the time, lack of fish hides/caves so the fish can be seen all day, overstocking & other reasons there's a lot of stress the fish deal with daily & then a rough drive home & then acclimatising to a new tank on top of that there's a lot of opportunity for them to 'catch' something.

My trick for LFS purchases (I use it to transport all my fish I buy or deliver whether breeder or LFS & I advise this method to ppl I sell to aswell)

Cushion the bag/s or bucket/s as much as possible during the trip, a few pillows & a blanket absorb a lot of shock, just make sure the bucket/s or bag/s are stable (I use bucket/s, but some LFS won't let ya, bucket & batt aerator wherever possible ;D). If I get the fish in my bucket then I add lil bit of ProTech, a multivitamin & 'relaxant' hehe, (lil bit of grog apparently hehe). It's not like StressCoat or Prime or any of the multi purpose dechlorinator/slime coat supp & vitamin. It's solely designed to make fish calmer & feel better for travel or after big water changes, during & after meds, any stress situation. It's like Swisse, Berocca & Grey Goose all in one for fish lol. I love the stuff, every fish I move or sell goes with a bit of ProTech & since I started using it I haven't had any probs moving my fry around or picking up fish even from North Brissy back down here, all go straight to eating & colouring up within 20-30min of going into the tank .

Next step is when you get home, don't float the bag then let water in, seems slow enough but really that's a lot of tank water mixing with a lil bit of the water they're used to quite quickly. Temp diffs can shock fish so the float method prevents that but there will more than likely be chemical diffs, pH diffs, Hardness diffs between your water & the water they're in which when levels change too fast can shock the fish. If you've ever flown to Darwin or to a hot tropical place I'm sure you've felt the slap in the face of heat & humidity as you step off the plane then the day or week it takes to adjust, it's a similar thing to the fish except their slap in the face is from a chemical soup & fish aren't tough like us primates If you get the fish in a bag, empty the bag & fish slowly & gently into a bucket, take a length of thin air tubing (the 3-4mm stuff which I also clamp with a peg to slow the flow more) then do a slow siphon from the tank to the bucket & if it's a cold day put a small heater set to tank temp in the bucket, if you don't have a spare small heater then hot water in a bottle in the bucket monitored with a thermometer will work. If tank diffs are big or you're not sure of water parameters you can fill the bucket then empty 1/2 to 3/4 (back in tank or throw out) then siphon more tank water into the new stock bucket. Then you can slowly pour the bucket of water & adjusted fish in or you can fill a jug with bucket water, catch fish, put in jug, slowly submerse jug in tank & let fish swim out. Long post of advice short: as smooth a trip home as possible & nice, slow adjustments not only of temp but of water parameters = minimal stress on fish & minimising your risks of infecting a tank.

Edited July 30, 2013 by BigPete86

[Nini]

Yeah.. all those reasons you've said just there are probably reason enough for me to avoid LFS altogether.. I'll go there for plants or chemicals n stuff, but having pre-stressed fish before they're stuck in a bag just feels too risky now.. Not after losing 2 finbabies.. And I think a couple of mummy guppies have aborted their pregnancy (can they do that?).. which I'm both relieved and sad about .. Babies are good -- but they weren't from my boys.. so who knows how many heads they would've been born with :s Still frustrating.. just something else on the list

I might have to invest in some of that fish valium.. and stock up on blankets and pillows next time we get additions.. I usually cushion them on my lap/in between my legs on the way home to take some of the shock out of the bumps.. but your arms/legs get sore after a while! Blankets are a great idea!

Advice is muchly appreciated! It's all these little tips and tricks that make life easier -- for us AND the fish.. Because we did the float thing with the big guy (because he's the most expensive fish we had bought so far <.<) .. and we added water into his bag real slow over like, an hour.. but I felt bad for him sitting in the bag the whole time .. I didn't even think of a bucket -.- derp ... not that he wanted to come out of the bag anyway.. Why do they decide to latch on at the last second, then hang on for dear life?! lol.. they're so cute :3

[BigPete86]

BN will stick to the bucket when ya tip em in too, they just like to be difficult (wait till you breed some then try to catch the fry lol).

It takes time & mistakes to learn these things lol, I wish there was a fish keeping almanac that told you how to fix everything & prevent all problems but the aquaria hobby is so diverse it'd be nearly impossible to create. There's lots of good fish 'bibles' but they're bloody expensive & never comprehensive, there's always something you'll want to know that the book can't tell you.

I started keeping fish when I was bout 9-10 & my first couple yrs were painful, so many mistakes & because we always lived in the country finding a fellow fish keeper to teach me things was like finding a tooth on a chicken lol.

If I had access to the net back then I may have had more success in that first yr but there were no places like this. I wish I found this place a couple yrs ago when I started breeding a lil again, closest we'll get to an almanac I reckon, a conglomerate of fish nuts lol

Edited July 31, 2013 by BigPete86

[Nini]

Ah, I deal with books all day.. it's nice to get away from them and talk to people -- even if it's online (I can't really deal with them in real life.. so this is good enough for me )

Looking forward to breeding fry! baby peps are soooooooo adorable!! .. .. once everything stops being spotty and dying on me .. .. I wonder if the fish can read this? :3 (HINT HINT GUYS) Not that they can breed until there's actually two of them <.< .. but I'll wait a while before I replace the boy -- I'm still waiting to see if the girl IS actually a girl, lol.. 6cm, so she's getting close..

I can't believe you were doing this since you were 9! I would not have had the attention span for it o.o I had a hard enough time keeping my room tidy! lol Not to mention all the newbie mistakes you would make.. and you didn't get discouraged! Nice work.