another filter question

[green_muffin]

Hi All,

so i've got a 4 x 2 x 2 setup currently have a Fluval 406 running on it and i plan on having 2 bn plecs and about 15 to 20 malawi cichlids...i know about the water conditions etc of plecs and malawis and this isnt a thread to argue about it.

the question is: with the fluval 406 can it handle that sort of bio load? i've been wanting to get another filter anyway and i might be able to get a freebie eheim from a mate but just wondering should i settle on fx5/fx6 or get a smaller eheim like 2228?

[matt-sheeran]

i know with my 4x2 i wanted an Fx5 for it. i know its a bit overkill for the tank but you can never have too much filtration especially for cichlids. but your 406 is only meant for up to a 400L tank, i know thats close but you should really aim for above that. cichlids are really messy and i read somewhere when i was looking for canister filters for my africans that you should aim for something at least 6x the volume of your tank in LPH or more. so say your tank is about 400L with all the rocks and gravel in it you should go for something that pumps out at least 2400lph or more... then you should have a nice clean tank all the time.... but thats just what "I" read somewhere and thats what i go by

[green_muffin]

what do you have on your 4x2 now?

i think i'll get a fx6 and have the 406 and free eheim as a backup...man keeping fish is expensive....what is the eheim equivalent to a fx5/fx6?

[matt-sheeran]

well i didn't want to pay that much for an Fx5 so i made my own for about $200 lol

thats the eheim (Fx5)

Age of Aquariums - Eheim Classic 2260 ( 1500XL )

what free eheim are you getting?

and yes fish keeping is expensive, especially when your starting out

[green_muffin]

holy crap balls batman...nice work. i dont think im that handy so i wont be going down that path.

i havent had a good look at the freebie im getting just yet, they had two of them on their 8x2x2 tank with american cichlids and one saratoga. i know its an old (probably classic) eheim but not sure if its 2260/2262. they still have a 25cm plec and one silver dollar but they want to get out of keeping fish so now i have to wait until they palm off the fish before i can become a vulture and take all their stuff.

i used to only get internal filters but the 406 is my first external and bam im hooked, performance is so much better and its less of an eyesore and more tank space...cant believe its taken me till now

[fishmosy]

I upgraded from a 406 to a FX5 on my 4x2x2. Very happy and so are the fish.

[green_muffin]

no problems with the fx5? there has been a lot of reports of issues and i didnt want to spend $500 on a new filter just to have it crap itself...hard to tell if the reports are fake from eheim fan boys or whether they are genuine.

[fishmosy]

I have two now and haven't had an issue with either. One is secondhand, the other new. Sure some people will have had bad examples but that happens with any product.

Why pay $500? Second hand fx5s seem to pop up all the time for much less. If you want to go the whole hog, track down an FX6 as they use a little bit less power and I've only heard good reviews.

As for Eheims, don't get me started. Over-priced, out-dated, power hungry, chinese-made, ect ect. Yeah, they may have been market leaders once, but if you don't change your design for decades, or at the very least upgrade your pumps so they are more energy efficient, and then move your factory to China, well you don't stay market leader. It's Fluval only for me until something better comes along.

[green_muffin]

i've been looking around for an fx6 for a while now and i have found thereefshop sell it for $475 with free shipping but not many good reviews about the site...and guppys sell the fx5 for $429 + shipping but also not many good reviews about the site...

where can i get a cheap fx5 or preferably fx6?

[Donny@ageofaquariums]

The pro3E eheims are more power efficient, quieter and more reliable than anything fluval has produced.

Anyone who doesnt think the fx5 had a fail rate worth taking note of, never worked in a lfs that sold them!!!!!!!!!!!!

Great filter, when they work.

And like many here I have never had a problem with mine.

But I still get a cold shiver up my spine when a customer walks in with one in a box........

[green_muffin]

am i right in saying there is no eheim pro 3e 2080? and there is only a eheim pro 3 2080?

if so, how are the pro 3 compared to the pro 3e?

sorry for the nooby questions, just need to get all the info i can before i go out and buy another filter...

[Donny@ageofaquariums]

Yea theres the pro3 2080 and the pro3 2180 (has the built in heater). These are the biggest pro 3 models.

The pro3E 2078 is the largest E model we get in Australia for now

but as always the cannister filter arms race will continue between all the big players in aquarium technology far into the future.

[green_muffin]

hmmmm...so im looking at eheim 2060/2062/2080 or fluval fx5/fx6...i realise that these filters are all rated over my 4x2x2 tank but im just a little bit annoyed that i just spent $300 on a 406 only to find out that it wont really handle the filtration for my tank...

now i just have to weigh up the prices...

[Donny@ageofaquariums]

Doubt you will find the 2062 in Australia.

The 2060 is the most reliable of them all.

The 2080 is the most fancy of them all.

The FX5 gets the job done but you need a plan if it weirds out on ya.

The FX6 is the new kid on the block, basicly an fx5 with a slightly more power efficient motor and an egg timer on the top. Time will tell as to its reliability.

[Rod]

I don't believe a higher turn over....ie bigger or more canister filters increases the capacity to handle "bioload"

Perhaps it may provide better mechanical filtration....

Bacteria involved in the cycle process are more efficient at lower flow rates....not higher

You actually don't need any filtration for a good biological process.....lots of overstocked tanks in Asia that just have air stones

My point is....if your concern is biological filtration....don't get a bigger filter....just add an air stone or better still.....an air driven sponge filter

[Donny@ageofaquariums]

?

For biological filtration you need vast amounts of surface area for microbes to create biofilms on....... and cannisters full of media give you that.

As do air powered sponge filters.

Cannisters at least give some coarse mechanical particle removal as well though.

And dont look as ugly as sponge filters.

Sponge filters for breeding and cannisters/sumps for display.

You always pay for aesthetics in this hobby........ but for many its the most important consideration in getting the job done right.

[Rod]

You make the assumption that because you have a vast area of surface in media in a canister filter....that that is where the bacteria will colonise....however, bacteria haven't read that book....they colonise where they have food and oxygen...and that may not be in your canister!!! It maybe substrate or rocks or rear glass

Scientific fact is that air driven sponge filters are the best biological filtration because....of 2 reasons

1...water is well oxygenated

2...water flow isn't high....you can eat more food off a slow sushi train than one going 100mph...same for bacteria

Bacteria are no different to other animals....the population is relevant to available food....not the size of the paddock they live in

I understand the aesthetic argument for canisters.....but can't agree they provide better biological processing

the question is: with the fluval 406 can it handle that sort of bio load?

If this is the question....then the answer is yes

If the question is would a bigger or more filters give me cleaner looking water quicker ....then the answer is also Yes

Edited August 20, 2013 by Rod

[efc]

Interesting...... The bacteria I want in my filters don't exists where oxygen is present

[Rod]

If you want nitrate removal from Anaerobic bacteria.....then a canister is not the best vehicle

Aerobic bacteria do the ammonia>nitrite>nitrate cycle

Ammonia and nitrite kill fish quickly.....nitrate is no where near as toxic and is easily controlled with water changes(or Donny's latest products!)

Edited August 20, 2013 by Rod

[green_muffin]

If you want nitrate removal from Anaerobic bacteria.....then a canister is not the best vehicle

Aerobic bacteria do the ammonia>nitrite>nitrate cycle

Ammonia and nitrite kill fish quickly.....nitrate is no where near as toxic and is easily controlled with water changes(or Donny's latest products!)

so what should i be using? i must admit, i have kept fish for a while (nothing exotic...mostly just mollies, swordtails, corys, and the like) but i thought that if i get a filter then this is all i would need...except for the maintenance and feeding.

[Donny@ageofaquariums]

You make the assumption that because you have a vast area of surface in media in a canister filter....that that is where the bacteria will colonise....however, bacteria haven't read that book....they colonise where they have food and oxygen...and that may not be in your canister!!! It maybe substrate or rocks or rear glass

Scientific fact is that air driven sponge filters are the best biological filtration because....of 2 reasons

1...water is well oxygenated

2...water flow isn't high....you can eat more food off a slow sushi train than one going 100mph...same for bacteria

Bacteria are no different to other animals....the population is relevant to available food....not the size of the paddock they live in

I understand the aesthetic argument for canisters.....but can't agree they provide better biological processing

Actually the water passing thru 99% of air powered sponge filters is not really very oxygenated at all. Thats because the air is used to move the water NOT used to oxygenate AND move the water.

As to your "colonise where they have food and oxygen" statement, well as long as there is water passing through a cannister THEN THEY HAVE BOTH IN THERE.

Both cannisters and air powered filters can be optimized to oxygenate the water better, but their primary mission is biological filtration NOT oxygenation.

The speed of water passing through a cannister's media or a sponge filters media is decided by more factors than just the output speed of the filter.

Many medias provide long contact time for biofilms and aquarium water merely by having a different structure. In Marine Pure balls for example the waters speed is reduced the further it penetrates into the sphere. This is path of least resistance physics and is complicated to understand but easy to employ.

This is a feature that is also seen in trickle and UGF filters. In UGF its mainly related the substrate thickness, and in trickle filters to the spread of water.

The idea behind cannisters is to HIDE a large surface area, and then feed it oxygenated water that through osmosis contained a % of all the fish waste in the aquarium.

I like to combo them with a wavemaker for the ultimate oxygenation and biological filtration.......... all while minimalizing the amount of tech intrusion into the aquarium AND keeping the room serenely quiet!

Once you understand the tech, you will get much better performance.

Better still, you will get what you want.

[Rod]

Nothing wrong with what you are using......if you feed correctly and do weekly water changes 25/30%....you should have minimum problems

However it doesn't hurt to understand the differences between mechanical, biological and chemical filtration

If you understand then you can make the choice that suits you.....not just believe the marketing hype or the common myths repeated often on many forums

You can make fish keeping very complicated(expensive)....but it doesn't need to be.

Edited August 20, 2013 by Rod

[green_muffin]

ok sooooo...advice on this setup please...keeping in mind the whole "keep it simple" and cost.

tank will have 2 bn plecs, and 15 to 20 malawis. currently has about 25 kg of texas holey rock, and one 2 kg hollow driftwood (i know about the whole PH thing), and about 40 kg of gravel. i plan on getting more holey rock or lava rock...aprox another 20 odd kg.

1. keep my 406 and just run it as is?

2. get a similar or smaller eheim and run it in conjunction with 406?

3. get FX6 (yeah...i made up my mind on which big filter to get)

[Donny@ageofaquariums]

I dont really like any of the options.

Is there an option for

4. Just add an OTTO PF-1200N powerhead

Thats gonna give ya all the oxygenation and mechanical filtration you need.

IMHO would be a good companion to the fluval cannister.

Just pack the fluval with some good biological media.

Even a very well stocked 4X2X2 is going to be alright with that.

[green_muffin]

hmmmm. ok, i'll have a think about this. i've emailed someone about the fx6, if they come back with a "we dont have any" i'll be sure to pop in on the weekend or next weekend.