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Keep your Ps. saulosis and breed them true

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Video footage taken by konings. End of clip shows saulosi male chasing a female around. The male definately has an irregular looking "split" bar on the left side.

Makes you re evaluate your breeding goals.

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10 years ago I had never seen a Salousi with mis-matched bars side to side. I was running an aquarium business (as well as breeding) and purchased from numerous sources - zero mis-match issues.

As I stated at the start of my post - no disrespect to anybody - as aqc247's photos show - the wild photo (just like the fish we had in Aust.) and the "now available" fish are miles apart..

As I have already said, I accept that 10 years ago you personally never saw a saulosi (NB you are still referring to them by an incorrect name) with inconsistent barring, and I accept that aqc247's photos show a few male saulosi with nice consistent barring, as do the photos in the thread by myself and kasman.

I will point out though, that we are talking about a fish that has been dramatically overfished in Lake Malawi to the point where a captive onshore breeding programme has been established to replenish the wild population. It is also a fish that is a non-allowable import into Australia and the fish that were available many years ago were most probably smuggled into the country in small numbers. So we are talking about two very limited gene pools, hardly the best examples to be using to support your claim that inconsistency in barring does not occur in saulosi in the wild and therefore by implication any fish strain that has inconsistent barring is not true saulosi.

I also accept that overall the quality of saulosi available in Australia currently is not at the standard available 10 years or so ago. I also kept and bred saulosi in those days. This is a statement that unfortunately can be applied to many if not the majority of the African rift lake cichlids we have in Australia that are not allowable imports, this situation is not unique to saulosi.

This is exactly why my focus in the hobby in recent years has been to maintain and improve strains of saulosi and other fish, and I believe I am on the right track with my saulosi and certainly do not regard my strain as being "miles apart" from fish available 8-10 or so years ago, I believe they are comparable with the reference photos of wild fish I use to aid my selective breeding, and I believe they are a huge improvement on what was available locally 3 or 4 years ago.

There is plenty of evidence available that inconsistency in barring can and does occur in wild populations of barred rift lake cichlids, so I cannot accept your arguments on this point which are based on observations of very limited gene pools and directed at fish that are saulosi and look like saulosi. Your time may be better spent focussing on the obvious saulosi hybrids that are still getting around like the msobo crosses with little or no distinct barring at all.

Edited by DFishkeeper

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I'm quite surprised you haven't seen the "stumpy" issue given its prevalence. Have a look back through #38....

I have had another look at the pictures in post #38 and all I can see is blurry photos of some juvenile fish, possibly females, in the background. Maybe my poor old eyes are going on me, but I can't see the "stumpy" issue you are referring to.

I have been breeding a variety of rift lake cichlids for 20+ years now, and a variety of American cichlids for 10+ years prior to that. In my experience, occasionally a fish will come through in a batch of fry that has an incorrect body shape, just as others will have gill issue, or fin issues etc. These fish are routinely culled and definitely not used for breeding.

But I am not aware of any systemic issue with "stumpy" bodies in saulosi. Your reference to it is the first I have heard of it.

I would certainly like to know more if you are able to provide further information.

Edited by DFishkeeper

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These pics are actually closer to 20 years ago ... He's a bit chubby (ate like pigs) plus a faint 6 bars under the dorsal. You could argue that he's a young male yet to get his fixed bars and may even be showing 'stress' pattern bars, but pretty clear differences to my previous pics #49 which are some of the wild colony that David bred from @ Red Zebra Lodge to repopulate wild stocks @ Taiwanee Reef.

The male in post #19 was taken 'on the reef' itself when we scouted around to survey count the existing population before Ad did the first release.

So fair evidence that our sources have been tainted along the way. But no doubt I think there may be 'real' pure fish that have been bred from around :) MacDyver

These are phone pics of prints. Gotta luv the Fuji-film !

post-6679-14711635140291_thumb.jpg

post-6679-14711635140503_thumb.jpg

More Malawi pics: http://www.qldaf.com/forums/general-aquarium-discussion-19/happy-new-years-eve-folks-heads-up-2016-tours-126971/

Edited by aqc247

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Well talk about 6 degrees of separation!

I just saw that Larry, who runs Lake Malawi Dive Safari's had posted receiving Ad's latest Malawi Cichlids book 5th edition (available from May 1st; wonder what paper he chose to print it on lol?). Perhaps John down Victoria has some privvy out here for release?? @sponsors' heard anything??

Look what's front up and centre on the cover ! No doubt Ad has a special section regarding the conservation programme and efforts to repopulate this little gem. Have to wait and see if some of my pics made it in there? (slim chance, hopefully a mention lol).

You see Doug, this is the reason you need to take more pics and become more photo savvy.

Even though you are not that interested in spending time photographing,
these will become invaluable in years to come as a reference
.

Nice Salousi !!!

Unlike fb, the forums like this one make access to such thread like this one a breeze to locate; just over 3K views & growing over 2.5 years 'thumbs up'

More specific is that I was extremely privvy to be there @ right place right time to see it first person. Massively gives an entirely different viewpoint to the whole process from lake to tank.

We'll probably dig up somewhere that someone has bred in demasoni and vice versa .....

http://www.cichlidpress.com

post-6679-14711635141228_thumb.jpg

Edited by aqc247

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Just to re-iterate the points I was initially trying to make:

(1). If you are breeding a species and have 80% not up to standard (by the breeders own view) then you have to ask the question - are the fish I am working with the problem and will it genetically be possible to breed-out the undesirable 'trait'. My view is unlikely.

(2). This trait was not an issue previously - and there are still lines around where there are even bars (side to side). There are lines still around with reasonably good shape - THOUGH FAR FROM PERFECT. The main issues (other than shape which is a big one!) are the thickness of the bars, spacing of the bars and the 'stumpy' deformity which is evident in females. Another issue is lacking the barring which extends into the dorsal fin. Some do have this but they are hard to find. If the barring (side to side) on fish is regarded as the problem then I would strongly recommend sourcing fish without this being a genetic trait.. they are available.

If anyone on the forum has (or knows anyone who has) these fish that look like those in aqc247's Lake Malawi photos I will happily pay $50ea+ for them. So far none of the fish posted on this thread other than the wild pics come close to having the traits I believe the species should exhibit.. If anyone wants to make some good money and you have these fish please get in touch. Photos ESSENTIAL! Cheers

Edited by none

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It's not only the males that need looking at , back in the old days, and of the wild Fish ,the females are yellow and not orange ,of the now day saulosis, weather the modern days foods have changed em or to much line /in / or mixed breeding has played are big part of it. With people taking to much care of male only line breeding , you need good females , to produce good off spring.

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Just to re-iterate the points I was initially trying to make:

(1). If you are breeding a species and have 80% not up to standard (by the breeders own view) then you have to ask the question - are the fish I am working with the problem and will it genetically be possible to breed-out the undesirable 'trait'. My view is unlikely.

(2). This trait was not an issue previously - and there are still lines around where there are even bars (side to side). There are lines still around with reasonably good shape - THOUGH FAR FROM PERFECT. The main issues (other than shape which is a big one!) are the thickness of the bars, spacing of the bars and the 'stumpy' deformity which is evident in females. Another issue is lacking the barring which extends into the dorsal fin. Some do have this but they are hard to find. If the barring (side to side) on fish is regarded as the problem then I would strongly recommend sourcing fish without this being a genetic trait.. they are available.

If anyone on the forum has (or knows anyone who has) these fish that look like those in aqc247's Lake Malawi photos I will happily pay $50ea+ for them. So far none of the fish posted on this thread other than the wild pics come close to having the traits I believe the species should exhibit.. If anyone wants to make some good money and you have these fish please get in touch. Photos ESSENTIAL! Cheers

ok guys, I'm just going to leave this thread to you and your "holy grail' of saulosi which may or may not exist in Australia and your inflexible opinions regarding the improbability of less than perfect barring occurring in wild populations large enough to provide the basis for an evaluation.

The breeder you refer to was talking about his results from stock he obtained from me 2-3 generations ago and his current experiences are not necessarily mine, remembering that as the breeder I get first pick of future breeding stock from fry. The photos I posted recently at #29 are a fair indication of where my saulosi line is at now. The bright colour in my females has evolved as I select the brightest females for my breeding stock, just as I select young males with the barring I am seeking, plus I feed my saulosi on NLS which in my experience does accentuate yellows, oranges and reds.. This does not mean the other fry are not true saulosi, just that I am a perfectionist and cannot see the point in breeding for the sake of breeding rather than continually trying to improve my fish.

And after again reviewing reference pictures in books by Ad Konings and online and feedback I am receiving from people whose opinions matter to me, I am happy I am on the right track.

So I plan on moving forward with what I am doing with my saulosi line and continue making my fry available to other hobbyists who are sick of seeing saulosi with 7 or 8 bars, or hardly any visible bars, or wavy blotches instead of bars et al.

I thank you for your comments in this thread and assure you they were all given serious consideration and I wish you well with your search for your holy grail.

Cheers, Doug

Edited by DFishkeeper

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